Keeping the peace: Series 2

Keeping the Peace Series 2, Episode 1 - The Duty of Self Care

Alexis Powell-Howard: Hi and welcome to the Keeping the Peace podcast with me, Alexis Powell-Howard. Today I’m joined by Sergeant Mark Mottashed of Lancashire Police. Hi Mark.

Mark: Hi.

Alexis: We’re going to be talking today about self care and the duty of self care, which backs up a webinar that I will be delivering on the 9th February to the National Police Wellbeing Service for Oscar Kilo so if anybody has been along to watch the webinar this will back it up. If you haven't seen the webinar that’s fine too because the subjects we’re going to be talking about will be relevant to anybody, really, around self care and it’s, obviously, a hot topic at the moment with lockdowns and everyone having to, kind of, think about themselves a bit more differently than usual.

Mark, would you just introduce yourself a bit and just say about your role and your time in the police, just so people know a bit about you.

Mark: Yes. I’ll start with the standard cop introduction where I’ve been a cop for 14 years. I’m currently in an office role at the moment within corporate development, I’ve been there for the last 12 months. Prior to that I’ve had a bit of a mixed past, I was in organisational development for four months, prior to that I was in the force control room as a team leader and also as a demand reduction unit for, I think, just over 12 months again. Prior to that it was five years on the armed response unit and then prior to that it was on and off for the best part of four years acting/temping sergeant. Then before that I did my time on normal response in the St Anne’s area and a bit of community beat management over at Blackpool town centre, as well. So quite a varied career, I’d say.

Alexis: Yes, I was going to say, there’s lots of different chunks of time there doing lots of different responsibilities, isn’t there, lots of different roles.

Mark: Yes.

Alexis: Obviously, we’re talking today about self care, so I’m assuming that you have an interest in self care and wellbeing for us to be having this conversation, am I right?

Mark: Yes. It was first introduced to me by a colleague of mine called Neil who works for Oscar Kilo, commonly referred to as being jobbed, in the job. Me and Neil used to work with each other on the van management unit, he actually mentored me for a good six months, and we both have an interest in personal development. So we would talk often about that and have some quite candid conversations about first line management and some of the resilience needed and perhaps some behaviours that we were witnessing from other line managers that perhaps insinuated that they were struggling with their resilience.

And, you know, sharing personal experience, as well, you know, it’s not a walk in the park for anyone, leadership, and we would often discuss or certainly share new insights into what we’ve read, what we’ve listened to and, yes, just share experiences.

Alexis: You can often find can’t you, as well, just thinking about leadership, that people are often picking up how to be a leader from the leaders around them, you know, you might have leadership training but, actually, fundamentally it’s what you experience, isn’t it? And I think wellbeing and self care is one of those aspects that if leaders are struggling or if that isn’t part of the culture of the organisation and those conversations aren't happening you’ve almost got to seek it out somewhere else, really, to be able to, kind of, think about it and think about yourself in that context as well.

Mark: Yes, absolutely. Yes, most learning is done by peer learning, isn’t it? I mean, what’s gone on with [unintelligible 00:03:43], to be fair, I think we’re quite good welfare wise, certainly with our chief running Oscar Kilo, being a national lead. And I’ve seen the work that’s been done by Neil and Julie, as well, who used to head it up, and we do a lot of good things. There’s a lot of compassion in Lancs to try and improve the wellbeing side, both from police officer and police staff side so, yes.

Alex: So when you’re thinking about that for yourself then why have you got that keen interest in it, why were you, kind of, reading and sharing those ideas with Neil?

Mark: I think it probably started when I took my exams, my sergeant exams early doors, so I started leadership in the police from year three onwards and, to be honest, retrospectively it was probably a bit too early for me. I know you’ve got to start somewhere so I won’t be too harsh on myself, but yes it was just dealing with that aspect.

Now, I came from the military police for four years so my background, if you wanted someone to do something it was very command and control, you have to do this, and if anyone ever asked why it was because we were the military police and that’s what we’re expected to do. So as far as telling people to do things it was a very easy environment because of the command and control, you know, that’s why it’s there sometimes.

So I identified when I was taking over a team, even though I had all the aspirations to do a really good job, there were some real times that required quite a bit of resilience. Certainly when you’re starting afresh and you’re trying to make the best decisions perhaps you lack that experience. But what really stood out for me during leadership is that you could make a string of decision throughout the shift, throughout the set of shifts and they could all be right.

And then you would make one decision and that was it, you know, through trying to do the best thing, however, you would make a bad decision, that was deemed bad by the team, and it very quickly turned sour, or not as in unprofessional but they wouldn’t be happy with your decision. And I think, yes, I lacked resilience back then because it really did affect me.

It didn’t affected me professionally as in I wouldn’t change my mind unless it was warranted, you know, I wouldn’t run off in fits of tears. But what I did notice was that when I was at home after the shift I would think on that decision over and over again, OK, what could I have done wider, wider, and just kept replaying that. So, you know, having recognised that I thought, OK, perhaps I need to work on my resilience.

So it was as simple as just going through Google and looking at, OK, how to improve resilience and, yes, that’s kind of where it stemmed from. And doing that research, kind of, reinforces some of my values and beliefs around leadership. Again, that’s just grown over time and I think it genuinely does, I mean, there are some leadership aspects which a lot of people do have but for me I think what has grown over the years is the accountability and responsibility of leadership.

If you’re willing to put your hand up and say, yes, I want to be a leader, I want to manage this team, then you need to accept accountability and responsibility. And to do that, before that comes resilience and then resilience, as we know, is then supported by and originates from self care. So if you’re not looking after yourself and your allowing, like I did early on in my career, for those thoughts to affect me, if you’re not getting a grip on that and trying to address it then it can take its toll.

Alexis: And it’s recognising those thoughts can be really difficult to manage, can’t they, because that kind of overthinking and ruminating almost on decisions that you’ve made, things you can’t actually undo, they’ve been done, you’ve already moved away from it, if you like, in terms of time, the impact might be something you’re still having to manage. But the thoughts can be something that can really derail your confidence, can’t they, if you’re not, kind of, conscious of actually being a bit kinder to yourself.

Recognising the impact of what you’ve been making decision about over maybe a series of shifts and, you know, how you’ve maybe tried to manage people and all the context to that, actually, you can become very self-critical and I think that really affects resilience, doesn’t it, in terms of managing people, as well?

Mark: Yes. I completely agree. And I think it’s important to note it’s not just isolated to police, this is leadership across the board. Granted in the emergency services and the NHS, you know, when you’re dealing with sometimes life and death situations, yes, the resilience needs to be perhaps a bit more resilient at times compared to other roles. But, yes, in every leadership role you’re going to face the complications of people.

And I have these discussions with a wide range of my friends who are in different roles and I know certainly because I started relatively early on, I was about 26 I think, which I still thought was relatively young for management. But from then I was constantly talking to, I still do talk to people who are either in leadership positions or starting leadership positions and this is the kind of stuff I would tell them.

Listen, you can read a lot of books about leadership and it will tell you a lot of stuff about do this, strategic vision, plan this or say this, but it doesn’t really deal with the intricacies and the difficult side of leadership which is performance management or, yes, having difficult and authentic conversations with staff and dealing with confrontation. Which, you know, I love that phrase which everyone says, including me at times, when they go, I don’t like confrontation. And the reality is no one likes confrontation but it is a real part of leadership at times.

And I think that, going back to my comment about, it’s not just the police, I think there’s a lack of guidance out there, or certainly easily accessible guidance to say, this is how you do it. Again, I think that stems from people lacking that resilience and the training side and the knowledge to address it, so if you’ve got a problem it’s far easier to not address it than …

Alexis: Avoidance is key.

Mark: Yes, exactly. So, yes, sorry, I’ve gone off on a tangent now.

Alexis: No, I was just thinking there about that idea around, you know, if you are leading others, you’re right, in terms of, actually, you can do lots of leadership training, you can do lots of reading around it. But it is about what you’re modelling as a leader for the people that are in the team that you’re manging, how open you are to people and that, kind of, human interaction, as well.

That it would be really easy if you could just direct people and they just did as they were told and there was no emotion around any of that. Because as much as you want to take that out of the conversation it’s definitely there because we’re people and we’re social beings so you can’t avoid it, can you. So whatever you’re doing as a leader or whether you’re working in a team there’s always going to be those interactions. And I think when you do leadership training you can learn the theory of it but whether or not you actually change fundamentally your approach as a person is another thing because you’ve got to really engage with it on that level, on that deeper level.

Mark: Yes. Agreed. I think what does help with that is having a support network of leaders around you, and I have really focused on that over the latter part of my career to try and … I think sometimes promotion gears you up to competition and there’s some good things with that because, obviously, you want to try and do your best and competition creates exactly that. But what I have found, certainly towards the last four years, is that I found it better to have an aligned leadership team who all support each other to deal with those difficult problems.

It’s all too easy when you see a supervising struggling who you think is not doing a good job, it’s all too easy to perhaps criticise, you know, at water cooler chats. When actually, really, what I think they should be doing is recognising that they’re struggling, going over, offering them support and advice and then forming that form of – I know this sounds corporate – but aligned leadership or support network to then address those issues that they’re struggling with. For example, the resilience around some staff issues.

I keep mentioning leadership because, I mean, I automatically see leadership as doing exactly the same for your staff, it isn’t just for leaders, you know, that example can be done with staff as well. In fact, it should be, that’s the whole part of accountability and responsibility of your role to address the welfare needs of your staff. But it also should extend to your colleagues and also your line management, as well, you know, offering them support.

Alexis: Yes. Because you just said there about support network and from a self care, resilience, mental health, you know, all of the stuff that we’re talking about, your support network is really important, isn’t it, because that’s what keep you buoyant. And questioning colleagues and being able to see that they’re struggling, what are the signs of struggle and being able to step in, what do I need to do, what help do I need.

Because I think that context is really important that, like you say, you can see behaviours and think, they’re not performing, or, they’ve let us down, all that kind of thing. But actually what’s going on, what’s going on behind that behaviour and supporting them with that rather than it becoming, like, a critical kind of, you know, negative response to it.

Mark: Yes, and I suppose that’s where the self care side kind of links in, because I’ve experienced that in the past and I’m still susceptible to that, I always will be I think, you know, leadership is always a learning curve, you’re never the finished leader. So recognising that in myself and then also recognising it in other people.

A big tell-tale sign for me that someone is struggling, certainly as a leader, is when they become – and this is quite common as you should imagine in our role - is quite the robust, macho approach to dealing with staff where it’s almost peacocking. I think not always but certainly in my experience it would indicate that someone is actually struggling when they’re doing that and they feel like they need to create a shell.

So if I witness stuff like that, or certainly if I see people withdrawing certainly as management and not addressing perhaps minor things, which someone would perhaps say something and then it would almost be challenging the manager and it would be embarrassing for them to challenge so they would perhaps walk off, or not walk off, just be a bit meek towards it. I would recognise that as, oh, OK, I’ve been there I know that’s quite difficult to address.

And I would have discussions with them and I do, and say, OK, you know, on a case by case basis sometimes people don’t react well if you turn up and say, I think you’re struggling. If you say, how are you, and then start explaining … the tactic I’ve used in the past is I start explaining issues I’ve had and errors that I’ve made, what about you, how are you finding it? And then you would start that or get them to open up and say, it’s OK to talk about this, I’ve experienced it in the past, this is how it’s worked for me, I’ll give you some help and support surrounding it, exactly like you would do for staff.

Alexis: Yes, absolutely. It’s that, kind of, talking about it, isn’t it, and creating an opportunity for conversation rather than walking away and just ignoring what you’re seeing, that’s one of the main things.

You’re listening to the Keeping the Peace podcast brought to you in partnership with Fortis Therapy and Training, Oscar Kilo and Humberside Police.

So when we were talking about with the self care wheel, which I know the people that are listening may not have come across, but it’s similar idea to the life wheel, there’s all sorts of different ideas out there if people want to Google them to get a rough idea about it. But I sent you my version of the wheel for you to complete and it’s broken down into sections around all sorts of aspects of life, really, you know, from stress levels and time management and relaxation, clutter, time out, exercise, diet.

All the things that we think about from a mental health and emotional wellbeing perspective are captured in the wheel and it’s something that I’ve developed over the years and used a lot in training and with a lot of police officers, as well. So you’ve taken the time out to complete that for me so we can have a chat about it today, we’re not going to go through it section by section but I just wondered how you’d felt, kind of, reflecting on your self-care at the minute. Because, obviously, we’re in lockdown three, lots of things happening around us, what were your thoughts about it?

Mark: Well, first of all with regards to COVID I think myself and certainly most colleagues in the police and emergency services do consider themselves lucky that we’re still employed. You know, there’s nothing much changed for me, I’ve still been going to work so I’ve still had that routine. Yes, so I just want to acknowledge the fact that even though we are discussing it my circumstances are by no means as difficult as others and I’m by no means professing that.

I forget to mention at the start, as well, and this is something I was conscious of, I’m not a self care guru.

Alexis: It’s too late now.

Mark: I wouldn’t profess to be so, yes. So I’m looking at this wheel, yes, things that stuck out for me was the exercise/movement and diet, and that’s not a cop out, I know that probably looks like that’s probably the least emotionally demanding thing to talk about. But I have recognised at the moment I’ve done a lot of office based for the last 12 months and, obviously, we’ve not been able to go out as much as well, yes, my diet and exercise has really dropped.

That was what stood out for me on this wheel because those are important things, you know, I had quite a healthy upbringing, obviously, in the jobs that I’ve done previously and the roles I’ve had to keep fit. And I enjoy keeping fit, as well, I don’t see it as a chore, but I have noticed, and this could be to do with age as well, that the waistline is creeping.

Alexis: We’ll blame that, we’ll blame that.

Mark: Yes, on the wrong side of the belt. So, yes, that stuck out. Time with my family and friends, now that was low but, as you can see, I’ve put there COVID-19, I think that really has an impact. I know you can talk to them by telephone and what not, but actually just with your mates. I mean, I’ve got a few friends but there’s a tight group of three of us and one of them has moved to America not too long ago. And then another one is actually a paramedic and he’s just busy, you know, as you could imagine he’s working all the shifts he can just to try and keep us above water and we don’t see our friend over in America.

And I do miss that, and we do catch up occasionally on WhatsApp and it is really hard so I feel really buoyed up when we do a voice message and we probably should do that more often. So, I need to speak to Mike and Trev probably more and family as well, of course. I do keep in regular contact with them, I mean, I’ve got a hoard of nieces and nephews and obviously with COVID and doing the job that I do, as well, we’ve got to be really strict with what we can and can’t do. So, you know, unfortunately we’ve missed birthdays, we can only drop things off, we can’t go in and properly say hello to them and give them a hug, so yes, that stood out for me on this wheel.

Alexis: Yes. I mean, even though you know the context of that, COVID-19 and the impact of that, there is that social aspect in both of those, isn’t there? Because I’ve been thinking about, obviously, we’ve been told to socially distance but, actually, it’s the physical distance that we need to do, the social stuff is the stuff we really, really need to do. Because, like you said, you come off and you feel buoyed up and it can just lift you sometimes, not necessarily that you’re in a low place particularly but it’s just nice to have that conversation with someone who knows you really well and you can have that banter and check in with each other and all of that stuff.

Mark: Yes. I agree.

Alexis: Any other segments that kind of stuck out for you?

Mark: The being mindful thing, I know we had a chat previous to this, didn’t we, about the stuff I’d looked at and, again, it was one of my friends who … I was on AIB at the time and just due to lack of staffing we were doing 12 hour shifts constantly. I remember being tired and run down and going for a drink with him once and he just always seemed to have a calm air about him throughout the previous six months. And I asked him about it because I just felt a bit, you know, stressed and tired, and he started talking about mindfulness.

He was very guarded with it, as lads are, you know, I think he used the phrase, you might think it’s woo woo, he said, but I do this mindfulness thing. And I’m thinking, oh gosh, is he going to go all top knot and sit on a yoga mat. But, yes, he talked about it and got me onto Eckhart Tolle.

Alexis: The Power of Now, yes, yes.

Mark: Actually, I think it was the New Earth that I read, it was about … But I’ve also listened to the Power of Now as well, so it’s like, yes, being in the moment and being mindful. That for me was quite high on there and, I suppose, in layman’s terms it’s about being mindful before it puts people off about sitting around in tie dye shirts. And it’s just about recognising what your actual emotional state is, it’s all linking into emotional intelligence which is I know a big thing that is discussed at Lancs Police. I know Daniel Goldman does a lot around it, doesn’t he?

But, yes, just being mindful and recognising when you’re in a good mood, you’re in a bad mood, and when is best to interact with people or have particular conversations. And just recognising that when you are perhaps in a worse mood that it’s OK to be like that, just recognising it. The big indicator for me is driving to work in the morning and if there is someone behind me fairly close I can see in my rear view mirror I will perhaps grumble something. Even though it happens almost every day when I recognise that I think, oh yes, I’m tired, OK, I need to get some coffee, get some water.

Alexis: Yes, less capacity.

Mark: Yes. Or don’t have certain conversations that day. So, you know, I really advocate people just looking into mindfulness, and do not be put off by it like I was previously, thinking you’re going to sit around with a load of hippies in a circle chanting. It’s actually about just taking that time out, simple breathing exercises, and just recognising where you are, and not being too hard on yourself, as well. You know, if you’ve had a bad day and you’ve done something which you’re not particularly happy about or you’ve said a comment or you’ve thought a particular thing because you’re angry, it's OK to be like that, just take some time out for yourself.

Alexis: I think that’s really important, that acceptance part, you know, because we are our own worst critics quite often, aren't we, and quite often what I see is people who have very high standards for themselves and when we can’t meet those standards suddenly, you know, there’s lots of things around not being good enough and feeling bad and guilty and shame and all of those really strong emotions which are really heavy. And I think just simple things, like you’ve just described there, like observing and tracking how you’re doing.

And I think one of the things for me with mindfulness is that if you can actually create opportunities just to breathe properly, you know, there doesn’t have to be hours and hours of it, like you say, you’re not sat on a yoga mat kind of floating. It’s not about that, it’s about just actually looking after yourself and observing, what are my thoughts doing, you know, what am I feeling and what’s going on.

Because you can be in it sometimes far too much and you don’t get that perspective because you’ve literally got your head down and if you can actually stand up and see what’s going on in your head and reflect on it that way you’re probably going to get more opportunity to actually take control of how you’re feeling.

Mark: Yes. I see it a lot and I’ve experienced it, as well, during the early temps and promotion, you know, people are in the promotion process and you’re that focused on trying to do it and that worried that, actually, I see people coming back after rest days during the process and they’ll say, do you know what, I’m not sure I want it. I’ve been there and had those conversations and I say, listen, what you’re feeling is absolutely fine, you know, you’ve actually thought, what’s going on, I’ve been so busy on the treadmill I’ve not actually, like you said, put your head up to say, where am I going here, is the thing I want to do. Yes, and recognising that in others has been helpful, I think.

Alexis: Yes, and I think part of that is factoring in space to have those thoughts, because I think reflection is part of that and I think sometimes we’re just running at full pelt and you don’t get chance to actually reflect on, like you just said, is this actually something I want.

Mark: Yes.

Alexis: You know, ultimately, the answer still might be yes but what does it mean and why am I feeling the way I’m feeling and that kind of thing, and actually breaking it down a bit rather than just feeling overwhelmed.

Mark: Yes, and I think that’s why annual leave is so important, and just having your work/life balance as well. Because something I’ve had and I’m always complimented on by my friends and family, is that I tend to keep quite a distinct line between work and home life. I think I’m lucky with that because where I’m at at the moment it doesn’t dictate I need to do that and I recognise that the further you go up in the organisation that home/life balance, at your own choice, will have to change because there’s far more impetus on you.

But, yes, I do have a distinct line and sometimes I acknowledge the fact that, well, it does come off exactly like I’m not a sociable person, but I do like to keep work and home life very separate. I don’t go on that many social functions, again, it’s not because … I used to when I was younger, I think like most did, but I always think I like to keep that gap. And I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, that just works for me.

I like to think I apply myself at work and then I do think about work a lot at home, certainly when it comes to if I’m pushing for promotion or working on particularly projects or making some decisions or making some bad decisions I think about it a lot. So for me what works is to have that distinct gap between home and work.

Alexis: Is that something that you consciously decided to do or has that evolved as time has gone on and, you know what I mean, that’s just a natural boundary you’ve put in place?

Mark: It’s difficult to say without actually sound the exact opposite, but I like to say I have a bit of humility. So when I was in the army four years prior to the police I was very conscious about – and I’ve got my friend to thank for this – that I could never come back and say, I was in the army, I’ve done this, I’ve done that, it just wouldn’t happen. It was just, like, Mark, wind your neck in, you’re just one of the lads.

Alexis: Yes, stop it.

Mark: And I never wanted to be like that anyway but it was always nice to be surrounded by people who would ground you. It became a bit of a joke, actually, because we would say something, oh yes, I just did such and such, I went for a run. Oh, how far? About six miles. They’re like, right. I go, yes, but I’m in the army, you know. And that still sticks now, they still say it to me now, so I’ve always recognised it.

That was a real distinct difference because you were at work 24/7 and then when you were off you were off, you know, you didn’t go to work you were off for a good two weeks. Then I thought, OK, right, when I join the police, recognising that it can swallow you up at times. Because when I was in the military police I used to hang around with colleagues who were in the police as well and I could see how some were distant but some were really involved. And, yes, I just never wanted to, as I say, it never worked for me to lean towards getting fully involved in my job.

So I think, yes, that difference between the army being so distinct, kind of, bled into the police and it just works for me. Like I said, there is no right or wrong, you know, some people it works for them that their social life is work or colleagues from work and I think there’s some benefit in that. It’s just, yes, it didn’t work for me, I felt like I was perhaps giving up a bit too much.

Alexis: And I think that’s really key, as well, that you’ve found that that works for you, that’s probably because of that conditioning that there was that, kind of, you’re all in or you’re all out of it in the army days. But making those choices that fit for you as an individual is really important because you can get I think sometimes influenced, peer support can be really positive and it can also have, obviously, negative impacts, as well. And you can be influenced to go along with what you think is the right thing to do because that’s what other people are doing, but it might not work for you.

So it’s making choices, isn’t it, that actually create time for self care, time for time out, days off, all of that as well.

Mark: Yes, agreed. I find probably that, because like I said before your leadership style and your skills are always evolving, but one thing for me, having just got into a bit more of the corporate wheel side of things where politics are very real and a necessary thing. And I struggled with that transition if I’m honest at the start, where I came from an operational background, I was very focused on – the phrase I would use – getting it right for the troops. And a decision would perhaps be made that I wouldn’t necessarily agree with, and I got into a bit of, I’d say, a bit of a cycle.

I found that where I was, like, I don’t agree with it, you know, it’s a bit ambiguous and then I’d think, am I being really effective in the role that I’m doing, is it what I wanted to do. Yes, and that was, as I say, a bit of a small cycle, nothing major it was just something that I recognised. Then I thought, oh, actually, and what really came through and, again, clarified my leadership approach was just authenticity.

So when it came to a decision I found myself doing almost like double, triple, quadruple feedback loops in my head, thinking what do the politics say about this, what do the politics say about that. Which, again, are important but I would always say, what is the right thing to do, an authentic approach. And I found that was really good at just me putting my foot on the ball and saying, OK, this is the right thing to do so this is what I should be doing.

I’m not saying that politics and the right thing to do never marry up, quite often they do. It’s just whenever I was struggling or lacked the experience to understand the political reason for it I would always harp back to, OK, what’s the right thing to do, what do I think is the right thing to do, and that really would centre my approach.

Alexis: I was going to say, it grounds you, that idea of what’s the right thing to do just grounds you straight away, doesn’t it, because all that noise of all the other perspectives and perceptions, like you say, the politics of things it can really detract from, actually, coming back to the decision you can make with what you’ve got at that time.

Mark: Yes. I would advocate that but, again, that might be a naïve notion because there are bigger decisions afoot sometimes, aren't there?

Alexis: Yes, but I think you can apply that to just personally, you know, what’s the right thing to do for me, what’s grounding me in this decision I’m making. Because often what I see, especially with officers and staff when we’re working with them therapeutically, is that you can get really drawn into what’s the right thing to do for somebody else. I don’t mean actually in the workplace, I just mean generally, you know, knowing how to help someone or how to … Because of what you do for a living, you know, that’s what you do every day and to actually not have to do that personally and step away from it and go, actually, that’s not the right thing for me, it’s the right thing for them but not necessarily for me, is actually quite a different mindset.

Mark: Yes. I was thinking about this the other day and I thought I might bring it to your attention and see what your thoughts are on it. The dichotomy of being in the police or emergency services, more so the police, is that you’re trying to do the best thing for people, however, you will quite often see the worst of people. And does that manifest – obviously without giving away too much detail – but do you find that manifests itself a lot with police officers, they struggle with that?

Alexis: Yes. Because I think you know what people are capable off, whereas, the general public might have an idea but they don’t see it for real. So, you know, what your fantasy about that might be in the general public can be one thing but, actually, when you’re dealing with it every day and you’re trying to find your way through that. You know, you’ve got your own moral compass, if you like, and your own ways of working which keep you, hopefully, on that straight and narrow, although that doesn’t always happen but, you know, most of the time. And I think it can create quite a lot of conflict because then when you’re dealing with that every day and then you’re trying to, kind of, have a family life and friendships and everything else you’re perspective is automatically different.

Mark: Yes, OK.

Alexis: Do you see what I mean?

Mark: Yes, more geared towards are you being defensive or seeing negative sides of people.

Alexis: Yes, and trust, trust being difficult as well because, essentially, you’re trained to question and investigate and think about and try and put pieces together and that kind of thing. It’s a bit like me as a therapist, you know, how I’m trained to think, it’s having to, kind of, learn how to maybe switch some of that off so that you don’t have to do that all the time outside of work, as well as in work.

Mark: Yes, got you. In fact, yes, I watched something recently, I think it was on a Ted Talk, it was about a therapist who said he was in an elevator in New York, he’d finished a long day and his neighbour said, how are you, and he just couldn’t answer him. He said, he had to build that resilient wall and figure out when to switch off and when not to switch off. Mind you, I’ve not done much research into therapy, that’s the first time and, yes, quite eye opening that that is an issue for them.

Alexis: Well, I got an email off an officer today who I do work with and it asked me how I was, so I gave him a response. And he knows me really well and he came back with, that was very corporate. I was, like, OK, if you want the real answer, here you go. But it is, it’s knowing when to switch it off and who you can do that with, and I think it’s just for police officers to be able to do that smoothly. And I think when you’re under a lot of pressure, as well, you know, working a lot of hours and everything else, it’s just trying to, kind of, keep an eye on that balance between what you’re taking on at work and how you’re seeing things and what you’re doing outside of work.

Mark: Right. So what’s what you would advocate then, just that balance, a bit of mindfulness?

Alexis: Yes. And just keeping yourself in mind, because I think that’s the thing that can almost drop off the list, you know, everybody else is important, the job’s important, but whereabouts are you on that list. Are you at the bottom of it or are you actually at the top so you’re looking after yourself first and then you look after everybody else? It’s tempting to just kind of go, it doesn’t matter about me, I’ll negate me and my needs and I’ll look after everybody else.

Mark: Yes, OK, that makes sense.

Alexis: Well, that’s really gone really quickly, I feel like we’ve covered loads of ground there, as well. Thanks for coming to talk to me, Mark, I really appreciate it.

If there’s anybody out there who wants to ask for more information or get in touch then by all means get in touch on the social media platforms for Oscar Kilo or Fortis Therapy and Training and we’ll definitely come back to you.

Thanks for your time, Mark.

Mark: Thank you. I’ve enjoyed it.

Alexis: Thank you. Thanks a lot.

Thanks you for listening to the Keeping the Peace podcast, it’s available wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you subscribe you will be notified of the next episode as soon as it's available. We’d love to hear your feedback and ideas for future podcasts so please do comment or get in touch on our social media platforms for either Fortis Therapy and Training or Oscar Kilo.

Keeping the Peace Series 2, Episode 3 – Working as a Firearms Officer

Alexis: Hello and welcome to the Keeping the Peace podcast with me, Alexis Powell-Howard. In this second series, we’re exploring the challenges of different roles in policing and how officers and staff manage their self-care when undertaking challenging roles. Today, I’m really pleased to be joined Barry Calder, who’s a firearms officer and Steven Hartshorn, ex-firearms office and Fed rep. Hi, guys, how you doing?

Steve: Good afternoon. Good, thank you, how’s things?

Alexis: Yeah, good, thank you. How are you, Barry, you OK?

Barry: I’m very well, thank you very much, nice to be here.

Alexis: Yeah, thank you, thanks for coming to join me. Do you want to kind of introduce yourself a little bit in terms of your background in policing and how long you’ve been in the job for and that kind of thing? If I come to you first, Barry, would you be able to do that?

Barry: Certainly. I’ve been in the job for 29 years, you know, almost to the day in fact, I think next week 29 years in. I’ve had a really good, varied career, you know. I did about four, five years as a response officer on a well, back in those days they were called relief officers. I then became a sort of uniformed crime squad type home beat officer for a very busy area of the West End of London, Leicester Square, which was great fun to work in, really good fun.

And then after being in that particular area for about 12 years, I got threatened with tenure – the policy at the time of moving police officers about. So I thought rather than being sent somewhere I didn’t want to go, I’d better start looking for a nice job, you know, something that I’ll enjoy. So I was just looking through that first day of thinking about it and there was an advert for a special firearms command armed response vehicle officers. And I can remember I had a friend in it and the stories he told me, how much he enjoyed the work and I thought, “That sounds good, I’ll give that a go.” And then so every since then, back in 2003, 2004, I’ve been a firearms office. Specialist firearms command for 13, 13 and a half years and a protection officer, uniformed protection officer for royalty protection for the last five years.

Alexis: Wow, that sounds incredible. OK, I’m looking forward to hearing about that, thank you for that. How about for you, Steve?

Steve: Yeah, good afternoon. I feel like an amateur compared to Barry, I’ve only got 26 years in the job, still a baby. For me, I did 10 years out in east London before – it was always my career goal to become part of the firearms command, I wanted to be part of something different and very challenging. So 10 years on an outer borough and then went to the firearms command in about 2005. And then whilst I was there, I became involved in incidents and how we looked after colleagues, so I thought, I know, I’ll become a Federation rep because that was the way that we could facilitate the welfare and support to colleagues.

So took an additional role in 2008 as a Fed rep and that gradually sort of took over my interests, where I became the full-time Federation rep for the same firearms command that Barry was in at the end of 2012. And then remained there until 2018 where I suppose for my efforts and my skillset that I’d acquired, I was able to move over to the National Police Federation of England and Wales as part of the national board and become the UK lead for firearms, taser and post-incident procedures. So it’s all worked out quite naturally really in how my career has flowed on the back of other jobs and working to make sure that we can look after our colleagues as best as we possibly can.

Alexis: Absolutely, sounds amazing. OK, so I mean, obviously for me, as somebody who’s obviously not in the police and, you know, trying to understand about being a firearms office, but it sounds like both of you kind of deliberately went that direction and have had amazing careers in that as well. What do you think has been the kind of amazing part of the job, what’s the bit that you absolutely love about it? If I come to you first, Steve?

Steve: That’s a tough question. It’s one of the questions that get asked when you want to go to the department of why do you want to go there.

Alexis: [Laughs] It’s like an interview.

Steve: Yeah, it is really. It’s an incredibly challenging post because when you’re working on a local area, you deal with a certain level of criminality. And then when you decide to go to a specialist command, such as firearms, you’re taken on a different tier of crime, where they’ve got access to lethal weapons, they’ve got very scant regard for human life, or even respect for human life. And for me, it was in that challenge to take everything that I’d learnt as a beat officer, response officer doing earlies, lates and nights, and challenging myself but also working with a team of professionals who all wanted to be there.

And that’s the thing with firearms is you volunteer to go there so everybody’s motivated to the same goals and aims as to be the best you possibly can, to do a really good job and to try and take away some of that level of criminality that is just a horrible and really detrimental affect to the public and colleagues across the UK. And I’ve yet to find anything that is as rewarding for me, personally, and that was my main driver for being there really.

Alexis: It sounds incredibly rewarding. Is it the same thing for you, Barry, or are there other things that you love about it?

Barry: Yeah, my time in the specialist firearms command, well, you know, putting it down into one sentence, it was all about saving lives. You know, whether, as Steve said, you know, some of the criminals we came up against, they had just no regard at all for human life and they would be carrying weapons, firearms, machetes, you know, all sorts of things. They’d be quite prepared to use them on armed officers or members of the public should they try and stop them. You know, a lot of the operations that I was involved in over the years was, you know, intelligence-led operations where we’d received information that, you know, criminal A was on his way to murder, a lot of the time, criminal B.

And, you know, we’d be putting in the intervention, we’d be stopping those persons en route, you know, to do that. They’d be pulled out of a vehicle, you know, very safely, obviously, making sure it was safe for all, as much as possible. And they’d have a loaded firearm or any other types of weapons and it’d be just that thought of walking away thinking, “Well, what we did tonight, it’s not going to make the news, you know. There’s been nothing traumatic, there’s been nothing really bad happens, we’ve stopped a bad guy with a gun and we’ve saved someone’s life.”

And just the thought of that as well, and that sort of leads on to some of the other training we were lucky to get within the specialist firearms command. I was one of the medics so, a lot of the times, we’d be first on scene to a police – sorry, not police shootings but shootings where the area was still deemed too dangerous before they could send paramedics in. And it would be our job to obviously keep victims going as best we could until we could hand them over to the ultimate professionals, whether that be paramedics or the helicopter emergency medical service.

And again, I genuinely couldn’t count how many times I’ve been on my hands and knees giving people first aid and keeping them going until they got proper, good, professional help. And you walk away again, knowing we did something good tonight, we saved someone. And it’s just, as corny as it may sound, it just makes you feel good when you walk away from that. And the work is probably some of the most enjoyable work I’ve ever done.

Alexis: I was just thinking, in terms of that job satisfaction really, and actually as well, part of it is, I guess it’s good if it doesn’t end up in the papers and it’s not something that’s reported on, because you’ve done a good job, you know, it hasn’t gone that far. So stepping in and either stopping something from happening or, you know, that intervention, as you said, it’s like you’re kind of changing that whole course, aren’t you? And actually the public probably won’t be aware of that but for you, you know that you’ve done that and it’s been really, incredibly important to be that person who stops it or that team that stops it.

Barry: Definitely so. I think if you’re after public praise, my advice would be never be a firearms officer. [Laughs] You know, because the only time the public really get to hear about things in depth and in detail, is where, whether it be an operation or an incident, hasn’t gone the way we want it to go and shots may have been fired. As I said, you know, it’s only bad news that sells, you know, makes it onto the media significantly and, you know, 99.9% of our work involves saving lives. We’re there simply just to stop bad guys hurting other people and being there just to, you know, try and prevent, you know, victims dying or being seriously injured.

Alexis: Yeah, OK, yeah, that makes sense. So just from a – because I was just thinking there, as Barry was talking, Steve, that you must have to have an incredible team around you that you rely on and that you absolutely can trust that they’ve got your back and I guess that comes from the training. But is, how important is that kind of team aspect? Whether it’s the camaraderie of it and some of that dark humour that I know kind of gets bandied about, or whether it’s, you know, just that support when you’re, you know, on an operation, if you like?

Steve: Yeah, it’s crucial; you literally do put your life in your colleagues’ hands. If ever we’re doing, what we call, a limited entry into a premises, you know, going to execute a warrant to try and arrest and detain some of these people, you might be going through the door first into a room and your number two, who is literally right behind you on your shoulder, is going in the room and they are, they’re covering you. They are your safety net in case there is someone hidden behind the door that you just can’t deal with, they’re, you know, I’ve never found a more professional team of people who have all got the same goal of trying to achieve safe objective but also be very professional in how they do that. And it’s reassuring that you know everyone has gone through the same course, the same level of training, has got the same professional approach. Not only dealing with the job but dealing with anything that might come from that job.

And as Barry’s mentioned, sometimes you hear in the press it’s gone wrong, shots have been fired, someone’s been killed. It’s not gone wrong, it’s what you train for and that’s a bit hard for members of the public, but also at times I think for senior officers to understand. We train for that, that shots may have to be fired in response to a situation and that the level of training you get, you know, over the many shootings that we’ve had across the UK, certainly that I’ve, I suppose, lucky enough to have dealt with as a Federation rep, that every officer said, you know, the training has been so good it has been like a training scenario which prepared them really, really well to deal with the situation, the shots fired.

But also the post-shooting care, because what perhaps many people don’t realise is that as an officer, you may have to engage and take a shot which may be fatal or otherwise. But then you immediately drop on to doing first aid to care for that person you’ve shot, which is just as important, you know, you have responsibilities to these people but that never seems to get teased out in the press, that we’ve gone from what people might term as an aggressor to a carer. And you literally do it within a split second because you don’t want anybody to die. You’re there to make that job as safe as you possibly can but unfortunately, and one my colleagues sort of said this many years ago, is the public aren’t part of the briefings. They don’t know to stand still and put their hands up and almost surrender. You know, you’ve got this fight or flight ability and people want to fight and fight because they don’t want to do a serious length of time in prison. So it’s very rewarding to be part of that, I think very highly-skilled team of officers.

Alexis: You’re listening to the Keeping the Peace podcast, produced in collaboration between Oscar Kilo, the National Police Wellbeing Service and Fortis Therapy and Training.

I think as well, when you’re describing it like that, you know, that you’ve gone from having to manage and incident and what’s going on then to kind of caring for somebody that’s been injured, you’re absolutely right, that isn’t teased out, is it? That’s not, it’s not kind of something that’s spoken about or acknowledged in terms of that level of training and then what you’re having to do as part of your role within that job, if you like. I was thinking there as well, that I think a lot of people maybe think about it in terms of looking at it as it would be in a movie. You know, you’ve kind of got those ideas, those ways of how those things might pan and it’s not at all like that. Barry, does that kind of frustrate you a bit that you kind of those, there’s those views in the public, if you like, but actually the reality is quite different?

Barry: Yeah, Hollywood has got a lot to answer for, you know. I’m a big film buff, you know, just as much as the next person, I love a good action film but none of it’s real. You know, I’ve been involved in many incidents over the years, I know many of my colleagues have, you know. I’ll read things in the press, you know, you’ll get people that – you know, journalists or people on the social media giving opinions, “Why didn’t criminal A get shot in the hand? You know, that would have made him.” No, it wouldn’t, because all he’d do is pick the gun up with the other hand, you know.

There’s so much that we see, you know, in films, that are just completely made up. A subject getting hit with one round, one bullet and they’re no longer a threat. Well, you know, sometimes, somebody has to be hit with multiple rounds. We have to stop the threat, you know, when it comes to that and if that threat is only stopped after two bullets are fired at them, that’s good. If that threat continues and 20 bullets are to be fired at them, then that’s the same job, it’s stopping that threat. We’re not there to kill. We know, as a consequence of firing those rounds, the chances of killing that person are off the scale, so hot. But we’re not there to kill, we just want to stop that threat, we want to stop it there and then so no-one’s at any more risk.

But, yeah, unfortunately, as Steve said, people don’t have the same briefings as us, they’re not aware of how people react, in the very strange ways they react as well. You know, it’s panic sometimes. We’re aware of that so, you know, a lot of police shootings, the ones that I’m aware of, police officers tend to wait probably more than they should, putting themselves really at risk, you know, to give those people the absolutely opportunity to give themselves up, stopping a threat. And if that carries on though the inevitably, the shots will be fired.

Alexis: Yeah, that’s the job you’ve got to do, isn’t it? That’s the reality of doing the job as well. Steve, when I said that about the movies, I saw you laugh there about, you know, because I know it’s something that’s kind of so far from reality. How do you kind of think about that in terms of the people who are doing the job and how they might be perceived by others? Because I suppose as soon as you say firearms, potentially, in some people’s head, it’s like you’re going to have to take a life. But actually the way that you’re, both of you are speaking about it, is about the threat and about saving lives and actually stopping incidences. It’s a very different perspective, isn’t it, to what you’d kind of imagine, I guess, without understanding it.

Steve: Yeah, it’s completely different and Barry kind of touched on it when he talked about Hollywood. And over the time, I’ve coined the phrase the Hollywood effect because you get the sort of, the social media type, the journalist who have a perception of what a gun does to a person, you know. They get shot, they go flailing backwards with their arms moving round in these grotesque scenes, or you’ve got muzzle flash everywhere. And quite often, there’s none of that. Officers have told me that when they’ve pulled the trigger and they’ve watched it, it has gone into slow motion for them. Sometimes they don’t perhaps realise the impact of the bullet at the time because they’re so focussed on looking at the threat of the weapon.

You’ve then got the public who expect a certain thing and a certain reaction when they see or hear something. There is a kind of the good side to that Hollywood effect though in that if you look at the use of taser and laser dots on people, because they’ve seen it all on, in films and in dramas, they instinctively know that if that laser light is there, it’s either a gun or a taser. Some people have put their hands up and gone, “All right, I give up,” because they know that there is an immediate threat to them. Which is kind of good, I just wish it had the same effect on everybody and they all realised that look, if armed police are there, it’s for a reason because there’s a really credible threat to life and that we’re there to deal with it as safely as we possibly can.

And it was interesting, when I first joined the command, my first boss, he sort of took me in the first 10 minutes and said, “Right, Steve, I’m here to make your job safe, I want you to enjoy it,” he said, “And I will never, ever put you in a position, hopefully, where you may have to take a shot.” He said, “But if I do, you’ll be there for the right reasons, because it’s been deemed so serious that it needs a firearms response.” And for me, being sort of relatively young, brand-new to the department, I’m thinking, “Hang on a minute, I want to get involved in doing my job.” But then when you go away and have a chat with more experienced people, and go, “You’ll never guess what the boss said.” They’ll go, “Yeah, and that’s what we’re there for.” And it was a really good levelling chat that, you know, I joined the command in 2005, I’ve never forgotten it to this day and it’s a really good mantra that, you know, we are there to do the job as safe as we can.

But ultimately there is a side where you may have to pull, squeeze the trigger my instructor colleagues would say, squeeze the trigger and a life may be taken. And that’s the reality of why they’re there but I’ve yet to meet anybody who’s actually joined and said, “Yeah, I definitely want to do that.” On the contrary, they don’t, but they want to be part of an amazing team of officers that can do that job and they don’t want the limelight, quite the opposite. When cameras turn up, they want to disappear, they want to get in their vehicles and go back to the base, do their evidential accounts, have a cup of tea and go home and, you know, blend away. And that’s the reality for many, many officers.

Alexis: Absolutely. I was thinking when you were talking earlier that, you know, you said about that fight or flight response and obviously when someone’s been caught or, you know, you want them to stop and they’re not stopping, and you get those reactions and, as you said, Barry, there’s those really kind of strange reactions that people have when they’re in those situations as well. Because there must be times when, you know, you’ve felt under threat and felt scared and you know have to – I know the training kicks in so it becomes more like a kind of cognitive thing. It’s almost like a muscle reflex and, you know, a mental reflex, isn’t it? But how do you kind of manage those feelings? Because I guess you must have to suppress some of that in order to be able to think clearly and to be able to do the job. Is that something that you do in your training or is that something you learn with experience? If I come to you first, Barry?

Barry: You know, the training we get, it is second to none, you know, it’s fantastic. Over the years, I’ve been very lucky, I’ve had some awesome instructors, exceptional. But I think the difficulty is, in any sort of training, you’re always going to know that that subject in the training environment, in front of you, is not going to take your life. You will always know that, that’s there. You know, you’ve got to act proportionally, you’ve got to act in a responsible manner, you’ve got to obviously perform as if it was all real.

But then you’ll go onto the street and you’ll face that person. You know, you’ll be walking down towards a subject, you know, a male, let’s say for instance, who you have information they’ve got a gun in their pocket. They’ll turn round, you know, you’ll give a challenge, “Stop, armed police, show your hands, show your hands.” Very loud, very nice, very clear, you know so that they’re under no illusion that they know what to do but also so that other people around you know exactly what you’re doing and what you’re telling them to do as well.

But, you know, it’s those thoughts at the time. It’s all very instinctive, it’s all very natural, it’s – robotic’s the wrong term, I suppose it’s instilled into your training. But usually it’s not till afterwards you think, “Blimey, you know, I saw his hand hovering towards his pocket, you know, he could have taken a gun out there, that was close.” You know, and it’s not till afterwards you have, I think the fullness of the incident really starts to begin to hit home. We’ve obviously got, you know, we’ve talked about flight or fight but for us, you know, I don't think I don't know anyone that gets a bit scared, gets a bit nervous when they’ve been in those situations.

And of course, there’s the adrenalin as well, you know, and the adrenalin does keep you going and if you’ve been involved in something particularly horrible, particularly nasty, I’ve had it before, I’ve sat down and I’ve actually been shaking afterwards, you know, after the incident. I’ve been all right during it and even when everything’s turned out OK, had a laugh, said to the guys, “Right, let’s get back in the car, go back, you know, so we can crack on with our statements, get the evidence all completed.” I’ve sat in the car and I can remember thinking, “I’m shaking here,” you know. And I realise I’ve just had a big fright and it’s only just really sinking in now how I feel.

So, yeah, the training’s very important but it can never instil the real world, it just physically can’t. I wish it could, you know, there’s all different aspects of training, you know, there’s live stooges that we can use and instructors playing the bad guys. We’ve got judgement ranges, you know, where it’s like a big video range in front of us where it all takes place. But it’s not real. It’s as close as you can get but you know in the back of your head it’s not real. So I don't think you can really prepare for being a bit scared, being a bit nervous. I think if someone told me they weren’t scared or a bit concerned about going into an incident where someone could kill you or a colleague, I’d be more worried about the person telling me they weren’t than –

Alexis: Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Actually, that’s a natural reaction, isn’t it, and you need that time to process, kind of almost like physiologically as well. Your body’s kind of catching up with what’s just happened, the adrenaline and all that response that you have in that shaking you just described, you need time to catch up with what’s just happened, isn’t it? Because it all happens so fast, as well, potentially, so you haven’t had chance to do that. So yeah, it’s a worry if you don’t feel that, isn’t it, because it’s a natural reaction to being under threat, I guess.

Barry: It’s a completely natural reaction and again, we’re all individuals and people deal with these things in, you know, their own separate different ways. Me, I’d have a little bit of a shake and then I was a bit old-fashioned; once I’d had a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, you know, everything was right with the world then.

Alexis: Thank God for tea is all I can say. [Laughs]

Barry: Exactly.

Alexis: Have a brew, it’ll all be fine.

Barry: Everything’s fine after one of them. And –

Alexis: [Laughs] Carry on, sorry, go on.

Barry: Yeah, so everyone deals with things in their own way but you know, we were quite lucky because one of the processes that we, you know, that I did when I was in specialist firearms command, and I know they still do it now. After every job, after every incident, the guys would go off, separately of course – when I say separately, you know do their own individual evidence, take care of that, get that completed. And once that’s done, so there’s no more evidence to be written up, the guys would all sit down together and they would have a debrief. And it would be about, and this would be every job, what went wrong, you know, what went well, what could we do better? And it’s all about improving our performance, making things safer for us.

You know, if there was anything really glaringly obvious, of concern, we would raise it with the bosses so they could feed back into the training environment. Also doing that as well, it was you and your colleagues having a chat and, to me, that was diffusing as well. So that was another way of getting rid of, you know, this, any problems that may happen afterwards, you were sitting down and chatting about the incident with a colleague and being able to process it bit by bit, almost like telling each other a story.

Alexis: Yeah, it’s so important, it’s so important to talk about, talk it out, isn’t it? I think that’s one of the things, I know when we see officers for therapy, often they’ve been in circumstances where they haven’t had the opportunity to do that, that kind of debrief or TRIM process or, just even talking to a colleague and it hasn’t happened. And then what’s kind of remained stuck in terms of that trauma, I suppose, is the thing that can make people quite unwell. So especially with a job like that, it feels like that’s got to be a crucial part of, it’s part of the job, isn’t it?

It’s just got to be part of any incident, I guess. Steve, from your perspective, because obviously as a Fed rep and having, you know, been doing that now for a long time and representing people and supporting people, how do you see people kind of reacting and responding to these, you know, from a. We’ve just talked there about, you know, supressing or maybe processing that response and those feelings after the event. But, you know, there must be difficulties around that, sometimes, for people.

Steve: Yeah, I’ve seen a real sort of variation in how people cope and react to – I mean, normally whenever shots have been fired and then it’s been declared a critical incident, we go through what’s called a post-incident procedure, PIP. Whereby everybody involved will return to a venue and for us, it just happened to be our base at Leman Street in east London. And then we’d call, the Federation would get called out, our solicitors would be called out, our post-incident manager, our professional standards and also the, depending on the severity of the shooting, if it was fatal, it would be the IOPC. If it was non-fatal, it might not be them, it might just be professional standards.

So you’ve have officers returning at various stages and it’s hard for people to understand but sometimes you get a sense of elation when people come back because they’ve survived something. They’ve been involved in a high threat and risk incident where they’ve neutralised the threat and it’s not until they stop, physically stop, take the kit off and go, “Wow, I’ve just come through something here where I’ve either pulled the trigger or my colleague’s pulled the trigger, I’ve been right next to them.” And then they start that processing of dealing with what’s just happened in front of them. If, you know, in the rare event that they do have to pull the trigger or if shots are fired or a threat is posed to a colleague, they start to think about that and go, “I’ve just survived it.” And they’re glad to have survived it.

And to perhaps the casual onlooker, that sense of elation might seem inappropriate or disproportionate but to that officer, it’s massive. It’s the adrenalin dump kicking in, thinking, “Wow, I’ve gone through it.” I’ve seen people come back who I’ve thought are in a really sort of dire place because they just look quite morose and are very quiet but I’ve learnt over the years, everybody processes things differently and it’s just their sort of internal coping process that they need to get to grips with something first because they know what’s coming. They know they’re going to have to sit down at some point, to provide an evidential account. I’d like to think they realise they had some really good support in terms of legal, welfare, Federation.

But also colleague and peer support, which is, I think that’s probably the unsung hero of everything that we’ve ever done as firearms officers, is the people you work with really are your rock. They’re there because they’ve lived and breathed the same experience as you and even if they’ve never pulled the trigger, they probably know someone that has or have been aware of it and they know exactly what that means to somebody. Because then there’s going to be probably quite a lengthy investigation process where they will provide that evidential account of their, not only their physical actions but their thoughts.

And going back to the early part about fear, you know, if you’ve got no fear, how can you write down in your evidential account that you had an honest-held belief and a fear that something would happen to either yourself or your colleagues? You can’t. It’s only natural to have the fear. And when officers intervene, we’ve already talked about the fight or flight response but you’ve also got the freeze response. Hopefully you can capture the subject in that freeze moment where you don’t have to pull the trigger. But also it’s the same for officers, they might freeze as well because sometimes they’re thinking, “Right, do I need to do this? Is it the safest response,” or they’re perhaps considering other tactical options, “Is someone else in a better position to do it?” And everyone’s got what we call a different line in the sand of when they may respond to that specific threat.

And, you know, we’ve had incidents where a subject has pointed the gun maybe not at the officer but at other people. Officers have had to pull the trigger because they’ve perceived a threat towards other people, other officers who are armed. And even though, you know, firearms officers have got body armour on, ballistic helmets, ballistic shields, a bullet is a very fast and small thing that, if it’s aimed properly and there’s a deficiency in that protection, it can kill, potentially. Guns and bullets were designed to kill, they weren’t designed as play things. And that’s the reality that firearms officers are up against and having to deal with that.

It takes quite a lot of internal thinking to make sure that you’ve done the right thing when you’ve had to pull the trigger. Because you know there’s going to be critics who are going to be poring over it in minute detail for days, weeks, months even years, to make sure you’ve done the right thing in law. And invariably, they have because the training has provided that, that as long as they’ve got an honest-held belief and it’s reasonable and they’ve done everything they can to mitigate. They’ve gone through, sort of, doing nothing to talking to communicating to maybe other less-lethal responses, there is only one other ultimate option to that immediate threat to life is a response with an immediate threat to life.

You know, I think most of my colleagues would agree if anybody can develop something that can counteract the need to use a firearm, bring it on, please do. Because it would be nice where we didn’t have to get to that point where human beings have to take the life of another human being. But until then, there is a job to be done and we have to do it as safe as we possibly can.

Alexis: Absolutely. And when you were saying that, I was thinking that, internally, that kind of internal dialogue that’s going on all the time, it’s almost like a risk assessment. It’s a strategy, it’s, you know, consideration of the rest of the people that you’re there with. Everything’s going on, isn’t it, and trying to weigh up constantly what’s the right course of action. And I think that process then of being investigated after that, you know, it’s incredibly hard. You know, I’ve worked with officers who’ve gone through investigations and they can go on for, as you’ve said, years. And it’s just hanging there all the time, isn’t it? And the kind of, you might fully know that you’ve done absolutely the right thing in the moment and you’ve got all the evidence to prove that.

But until that decision’s made, it’s just there and ongoing and I think that can be really stressful. Especially if, like you say, it’s actually the last course of action that you would want to take. You’ve tried everything else you possibly can beforehand and that can be quite, that can be the part, I think, that I’ve seen, that creates that ripple effect after an event, an incident. Rather than, potentially the incident itself, if that makes sense. You’re nodding there, Barry, can you relate to that? Can you see that?

Barry: Yes, I can. Obviously I’m not going to talk about the incident in too much detail, it would be unfair. But, you know, a number of years ago, I unfortunately shot and killed someone. You know, we did, that day, we did everything we possibly could not to, you know, none of us wanted to do that. You know, I was one of the officers that pulled the trigger, I didn’t want to do it. And, as you said, that then foregoes. You know, Steve’s already mentioned the post-incident process, so we have to then go, step into that. So then, at the time, that takes away the options that we’ve got to debrief. We can’t, it’s evidence, you know.

We’ve got to, you know, go through, quite rightly, an inquest process where we’ve got to fully justify and explain why we’ve done what we’ve done. The incident I was involved in, from the shooting to the inquest where I gave evidence, was two and a half years. And all I wanted to do, you know, in the face of lots of horrible stuff on social media, lots of horrible things in the press – and it’s not just me. You know, I’m big enough and ugly enough to deal with a lot of the things that are said but, you know, when I’ve got my poor old mum, you know, speaking to me on the phone, you know, saying that she’s just read some commentator in a newspaper saying that I should be charged with murder. You know, not being named but my mum knows it’s me because, you know, with hindsight, you know, if it was ever to happen to me again, I wouldn’t tell her because I wouldn’t want her to go through that.

But we want to sing from the rooftops why we’ve done what we’ve done. We want to tell the world but we are very, very restricted in when we can do that. And it’s only until you go and give that evidence, you know, at an inquest, that you can do so. And of course, you know, that inquest is difficult in itself as well because yes, you may have that anonymity, you know, from the press and the public, but you don’t have that anonymity in person, facially, you know, with the coroner, with the jury, with the, all the barristers, you know, the person’s family who you have shot and killed.

You know, I gave evidence and I must have been about 10 feet standing away from them with them all looking at me. And I couldn’t have felt worse for them, you know, but I was sick to the stomach having to explain why I killed their son, brother, etc., in front of them. You know, fully justifying it but knowing that they’re having to listen to that as well. You know, it’s just, there’s no winners, you know, there’s no winners at all. And as you said, you know, things go round and round in your head, the process taking that sort of length of time, you know, it’s not good. There’s no winners because families are left wanting to know why, officers are wanting to tell why. And, as I said, there’s no winners.

Alexis: No, everyone’s in limbo, aren’t they? Everyone’s waiting for some kind of conclusion, I guess. You’re right, absolutely, no winners at all. Do you think, I mean, thank you for sharing that as well, I appreciate you talking about that because I think it’s important that these things are talked about on this podcast, that’s the point of it really. And I think, Steve, from your perspective, do you think that it’s possible to prepare officers for that? You know, actually be able to, you know, I guess, have that within the training or to support officers so that they can feel that they can get through that kind of more easily. But it’s so difficult, isn’t it, to kind of prepare people for that situation?

Steve: I certainly think it’s possible but it’s almost like an anti-advert to come to the department, as if, you know, “Come to the department. You may shoot somebody and here’s what can happen; of trapped in investigations and having your name dragged through social media as being a cop kills family man.” And that’s not the reality. The physical training, the tactical training, the, I think is the best in the world in this country, it’s phenomenal. The level of skill that they put into training you to do your job properly is second to none. But for me, and it’s becoming sort of more prevalent now, looking at other investigations, that there isn’t really training that prepares you in how to take a life.

Certainly for me, one of the questions joining the firearms command was, you know, are you prepared to take a life? And you’re taught, “Yes, I am, I’ve thought about it, I’ve given it consideration.” But do we, do we actually know what it’s like? We never get to speak to a trigger puller because, in UK law, armed police are the only people that can take a life legitimately. You look at the military, they’re doing it in the theatre of war. There is no-one else that is charged to do that duty but we don’t get to speak to them before you join. So you have this notion of, “I’ll be fine, you know, it’s easy, it’s quite remote.” It’s not.

I’ve represented people that have been six to eight feet away from the person and they’ve then pulled the trigger. And unfortunately that person has died because of that and that’s huge. And as much as we can sit down and go through the process of, right, you’re going to pull the trigger and then that’s going to finish the incident and we’re all going to return to the PIP venue. The investigation at the scene will take place, the body will be recovered, the family will be info¬rmed. That’s got to have an impact on an individual. It’s certainly impacted on, sort of, me as Fed rep, on looking at colleagues and how they cope with that.

But it’s making me question is there more that could be done in the training and I think there is, I think there needs to be more, I’m sort of stuck for words, softer skills. Is it psychological preparation maybe, around what it actually means for people to talk around what they’ve done, you know. Everyone copes with a shooting differently. For some people, it’s a job of work, other people are taking it, “Wow, this is really affecting me now,” and it gets quite involved that they may not want to continue in a firearms career. But I would like to see more thought given to, in the initial training and continuation training around what it actually means to you when you do pull the trigger. Let’s talk about the time that you will be off operational duty and it sounds a bit crass but you won’t be with your team, perhaps you won’t be earning overtime. You may have a period of time where you’re just doing Monday to Friday, nine to five whilst the investigation takes place. It could be 12 months, two years, five years before you get an end resolution on that and what does that mean to you?

You know, and as Barry’s already said, you talk to family. I know of officers who have not told anybody other than their immediate partner because of the way families are made up; there’s some good, some bad. That you know that maybe that second cousin twice removed may well go speaking to someone in the press and suddenly, the press have got an avenue to find out who this person is. Then they do all that background check on social media, find you drunk at a party and suddenly there’s the picture of you with a beer bottle and there’s the picture of someone you’ve shot as a family person with their kids. And you think, “Hang on a minute, what are they trying to say here?”

So it’s not just that emotional side that affects officers, it’s what gets played out upon them, their families, their friends. And it’s almost as if people want to set up a firearms officer to fail. I’ve yet to meet a single person that goes out, that carries a gun in UK armed policing, that wants to have to do that. They just want to do their job. But I do think there is more that could be done, sort of pre-shooting, to make them realise. Not to put them off but to make them understand that, you know, it is impactive. You may wake up in the middle of the night having terrors; it may seem irrational to other people but that’s what can happen. If you look at – people get assaulted and it leads to PTSD. My colleague’s pulled the trigger, that can lead to PTSD because they have to –

Alexis: Absolutely.

Steve: And I don't think it’s been thought about properly in policing terms for a long time but it’s becoming more prevalent now through what my colleagues – and not just in the firearms but road traffic, custody, response policing, detectives, any kind of serious investigation that affects you in a big way, it’s got to have a profound, long-lasting effect. And, you know, it takes quite a long time for those issues to manifest themselves and I think we’re beginning to start to see a bit of the tip of the iceberg now on how it’s affecting people. But things like this can help because it’s only human to say, “Yeah, that’s affected me,” and let’s talk about it in a grown-up way, an adult conversation to make other people realise that yes, they can do the job and they can get through it and cope with it.

Alexis: Absolutely, and there’s that support network as well, to help to do that as well because I think that’s the other thing that, you know, in those examples you’ve just given there, both of you actually, that, you know if something like that happens and that post-incident investigation is going on, you can end up in the position of do I protect my family from what is going on? Which then, in turn, protects me but then it reduces the people you can actually get support from. And there’s an element of isolation there, as well, isn’t there? So all of that, if you think about from a trauma perspective, all the things that we would suggest that you maybe need if you’re trying to process trauma and, you know, overcome those feelings, some of that actually has been removed. Just because of the process and the position you might put yourself in to protect others, I think. Does that fit for you, Barry, does that kind of feel like that’s?

Barry: Yeah, you know, it does and as I said, throughout my career as a firearms officer, obviously I’ve fired shots and killed someone on one occasion, I was a tactical adviser on another fatal shooting but also first on scene on multiple occasions, you know, where persons have been shot. That all leaves a trace, it does all leave a trace. And, you know, a lot of the more horrible, a lot of the more graphic things are dealt with, as Steve said, just like every officer across the country, you know, whether you’re in a custody suite, whether you’re dealing with a traffic accident, you know, on a country road or a motorway. Or whether you’re the response officer turning up to, you know, a sudden death or a murder. Everything leaves that trace and you’ve got to be in a position where you can get help, seek help.

But of course, the organisation, to a certain extent, has got a duty of care for you because they are putting us in that position. We’re all volunteers, you know, we have got to expect that we are going to deal with these things, I’m not taking that away. But, you know, there’s a significant amount more that could be done. It’s changing so much for the better. At the time, you know, when I became a firearms officer, you know, if you were to have a heart-to-heart and a little bit of a talk about your feelings, in an armed response vehicle back then, you’d have been probably kicked out the car, you know. [Laughs]

But thankfully, the culture’s changing, very much so. Because if we don’t talk about it, people get ill. I got ill last year, it was, you know, I was physically ill with COVID-related and I developed some mental health problems, depression, anxiety and I needed some counselling and I was very grateful to it. But during that counselling, so much stuff came out and that I thought I’d dealt with, I’d never had issues with, you know, dead people, injured people, all the traumatic sights. My shootings and such like that. And I’d be sitting in those sessions in tears, crying my eyes out and I didn’t know why, you know. And it just all built up. That probably wouldn’t have built up if I’d handled things better and spoke more and sought probably a bit of help back then.

The peer support is good but that support has got to be from top to bottom and unfortunately some of the incidents I’ve been involved in, within our department, the support has been outstanding. From, you know, our OPU commander, as a whole, you know, very well looked after. The Fed reps, Steve, without giving him too much praise, before his head gets too big, you know, is an outstanding Fed rep. Steve looked after me, you know, for a couple of bits and just absolutely amazing, you know, that help and support.

But some of the top-level support is wanting, you know. For instance, I’ve been involved in a shooting and it was quite high-profile; many of my other colleagues have been involved in similar high-profile shootings where we’ve shot a criminal or somebody with mental health issues doing very bad things has been shot. And it's almost to the point where, within the organisation at the top level, you’re ostracised. They do not want to show that support. No-one will come down with you and have a chat, from the big bosses.

But if you shoot a terrorist, there’s a queue, you know. And I’ve got colleagues that have dealt with those sorts of incidents, and don’t get me wrong, I’m not taking anything away from them, you know, they deserve that praise. But, you know, it’s, all officers who’ve been involved in those circumstances deserve that praise and should be looked after equally in the same measure. And until that happens all the time, you know, including the welfare support, you know, from the top level, then we’re going to have officers having problems. Maybe not during the incident or after the incident but in the following years.

Alexis: It’s a collective thing, isn’t it, as it happens over the years. And as you’ve said, if you don’t always acknowledge those things that have happened, it’s like – I was talking to an officer the other day and he was talking about, you know, having the kind of boxes in the warehouse. That it’s kind of gone in there, gone in there and then something happens and often it can be a physical illness that leads to the kind of emotional response, if you like. Because you’re just holding it and it’s just kind of sat there and you’re right, it’s having the right levels of support at the right times and it being recognised as well within the organisation that that is something that is going to have an impact for some people as time goes on as well.

Barry: Yeah, and I think of the nature of the type of the people that we are, we’re hesitant at seeking help. We’re good at telling people to go and get help but we’re not so good at getting it and asking for it ourselves. So, you know, that can be part of the problem. When I had my issues last year, it was a big push from my wife and a couple of close friends that made me go and get some help. And I probably wouldn’t have done for a significant period longer if they hadn’t have pushed me into the corner to get that help that I very much needed at the time.

Alexis: Absolutely and I think that’s the key thing as well, isn’t it? That it might be that you don’t particularly want to go and ask for help but if someone else says to you, and knows you well, “You need to go and ask for some help,” then you’re more likely to do it. It almost gives you permission to do that, I think. I think that’s part of it as well, isn’t it, looking out for each other as well, not just about, you know, because sometimes we don’t even notice, know we need it. And I think that’s the hard part. Steve, in your role, I guess you’re supporting a lot of people who, you know, are in similar situations or have had incidences the same as Barry’s. What do you kind of see in terms of their coping mechanisms and, you know, how do people kind of get through?

Steve: It’s sort of varied really. I mean, previously you sort of talked about the dark humour, you know, the canteen culture that we might call it. And, you know, to the untrained observer, it might seem it is very dark humour, it’s perhaps inappropriate. But when people are coping with significant amounts of stress and exposed to things that they’ve never dealt with before, what is the appropriate response, you know? Is it that archetypal stiff upper lip that, you know, the British are supposed to have, that we just get on with it, say nothing and you’ll be fine?

But it’s interesting, you talked about sort of the boxes in a warehouse and, you know, through life we go through things, everyone copes through these things very differently but they tend to compartmentalise stuff, put it in a box, put it at the back of their mind. And for me, I’m interested in what makes one person break compared to the other? Because, you know, myself and Barry, similar experiences, armed response vehicles, hundreds and hundreds of deployments, exposure to shootings, death, destruction.

But what makes me not need professional help and what made Barry need it? You know, be it physical, mental and all those kind of things that when you look at people, you think, “Yeah, that person is going to struggle with this.” And then quite often they’re not and it’s the people that have perhaps been a bit larger than life, maybe have this façade that, yeah, I’m fine but underneath, it’s tears of a clown, you know, and they’re not coping too well. And how can we do more for that?

And for me, it’s having that proper conversation and it’s – if I look at the way investigations are dealt with in the police as a whole and we have family liaison officers who deal with families of people who’ve been subject to horrendous crimes, murders, rapes, sexual assaults. But at some point, they have a disengagement process where for me, firearms officers, as a Fed rep, I’ve maintained those contacts with colleagues largely, if I possibly can because one, you know their story. You know what they’ve gone through because you've had similar experiences and it’s easy to pick up the phone and say, “Hello, mate, how are you doing?” You don’t have to talk about the job because you know it intimately because you’ve been with them, through their evidence, through inquest, through court, so you’ve got a bit of an understanding.

And it’s just that sort of random dip sampling at times, if you can. Not everybody wants it, some people just want to go, “Yeah, done the job, crack on, never speak to you again.” Absolutely fine. It’s just making sure that they realise that they’ve got someone to go to because again, in the job, we can talk about it. We can come to work as colleagues and blow off to our colleagues, “Yeah, I’ve been involved,” and they get it completely.

But perhaps if Barry couldn’t talk to his wife about the job, then – but his wife knows he’s been involved in a shooting because of what’s on the telly and she knew it was the late turn shift and he was there, how do they cope with it? Who can they turn to? Can you go and talk about your incident to your local family doctor? Because, you know, you’ve got this for you forgot to tell the reception what you’ve gone through before you see the doctor. We’ve all overheard receptionists talking on the phone, they put your name out there and, “It’s to do with a shooting, is it?” Suddenly everyone in reception knows what you’re going –

Alexis: [unintelligible 00:49:46].

Steve: Yeah. Are the medical records safe, how secure is that data? How are they referring you once they put your name down next to something which everyone’s probably seen on the news. And when there’s a police-involved shooting, it’s not just a by-line, it makes the news for 24 hours to a week. It’s really easy to find out who these people are. And how do the families cope as well because that peer support is so important. And it may be that, you know, your family and friends don’t agree with what you’ve done. It may be that they hold certain views, that they’ve tolerated you as a police officer, to a degree but now they know you’ve taken a life, that’s, whoa, way too far. And how do you put that there?

And thankfully, there is some very good network support, you know, they’ve got the PFOA – the Police Firearms Officer Association was set up because there was a lack of support for officers but also family. It’s a great charity, it’s been going for 10 years now. It’s got that support that we can put people in contact with others who have been through that kind of process. But also skilled helpers like yourself, Alexis, who are professionally trained, accredited, know how to deal with people who are going through significant events of trauma in their life. And that’s important as well. So it’s not just the officers, it’s the family; get them through it as well.

But also it helps the job because if these people don’t return to the job, then what are they going to do? You know, I’m a firm believer, give people help, give them the tools to deal with it. They are then the best people to be in that role, if they want to, to train, to speak to other people on how to cope with it. And sometimes that gets lost by senior management who just think you do one job, that’s it, you can go. I disagree. Give me evidence to show me that and I’ll think about it. But for me, someone like Barry, who’s been there, seen it, done it, is a great exponent for talking through the process, how to cope with it and to signpost other people, “Yeah, get some help.” Everybody’s got their normal self, be it completely crazy, completely quiet.

Alexis: I was going to say, it’s all different, isn’t?

Steve: Absolutely but it’s when they change from that normal self to the other person, that’s when I think they need help. And it’s getting that right intervention and, you know, most people carry on, do the job. Some people don’t, it’s too much and we fully respect that. But it’s making sure that 10, 15 years down the line, when I think, you know, maybe the early stages when PTSD could kick in, let’s contact them then. Let’s see how they’re doing, how they’re coping. And if they’re not, let’s get them some professional help.

Alexis: Yeah, definitely, it’s that, because if you’re not careful, you’re casting people adrift, aren’t you? And actually they might not be ready to access help now, it might be in a few years’ time, it could be months’ time. But actually unless you’re kind of monitoring people, you know, the long-term impacts – we see it with the military, don’t we? It’s the same type of, kind of fall out from it and you haven’t got those peers around you and that support network that’s readily available. I was thinking as well that it is having different levels of support, isn’t it, depending on what’s needed.

And you’re right, everybody’s different so we’ve all got different resiliency levels, we’ve all got, you know, it’s not just about what’s happening at work either, it could be what’s happening outside of work and, you know, it could be a million and one different things that lead to somebody starting to struggle. And actually, if it’s difficult to ask for help or you feel like there’s going to be a kind of sense of being weak for asking for help or whatever, whatever the stigma is around it. Then actually that causes massive risk within the team, doesn’t it? It causes massive risk for the individual but also within the team as well.

And I think that family reaction as well is something that isn’t really thought about, you know, that it can change somebody. If you can’t talk about it at home and it starts to affect relationships as well, it’s that just constant ripple effect. It’s looking how far that ripple effect goes and supporting as many people as possible. I know some of the work we’ve done for the Fed has been around, you know, sometimes helping the family because if we can help the family, we can help the officer, then it kind of shifts what’s going on. But if you’re only helping one aspect of that, it’s not the same impact. I think that’s something that’s definitely worth thinking about, isn’t it, for officers.

The time has flown by and it’s been fantastic to talk to you both, thank you ever so much for coming to speak to me and thank you for being so honest and open as well. I hope that people who are listening, kind of, have taken something from the conversation and as I’ve said in the other podcast, the second series – I think I said it at the beginning as well – is about all these different roles. So, you know, if people want to get in touch or if there’s any questions, are you guys happy for us to kind of forward people to you, if there’s anything they want to ask about?

Barry: Absolutely.

Steve: Yeah, more than happy to help out, do what we can. That’s what we’re there for, to try and help people negotiate what they’re going through, what they may go through just so that they can, you know, cope with it long-term.

Alexis: Yeah, that’s brilliant, thank you. Thanks, Steve, thanks, Barry, nice to see you both. And we’ll, there’ll be other episodes going out gradually over the second series, we’re going to put them out separately rather than together. So, thanks, everybody, take care.

Thank you for listening to the Keeping the Peace podcast. It’s available wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you subscribe, you’ll be notified of the next episode as soon as it’s available. We’d love to hear your feedback and ideas for future podcasts so please do comment or get in touch on our social media platforms for either Fortis Therapy and Training or Oscar Kilo.

Keeping the Peace Series 2, Episode 5 – Family Liaison Officers

Alexis: Hello, and welcome to the ‘Keeping the Peace' podcast. I’m Alexis: Powell-Howard, and in this second series, we’re exploring the different roles in policing and the impact on the people who do them. In this episode, I’m joined by Kate Kieran and Lou Pye, who are both family liaison officers, or known as FLOs. Welcome to you both. Nice to see you both.

Kate/Lou: Thank you.

Alexis: So do you want to just do a little bit of an introduction about your kind of role and a bit about your history in the force, if that’s OK. If I come to you first, Kate, is that OK?

Kate Kieran: Yeah, thank you. So I’m in the Metropolitan Police in London. I’ve got 20 years’ service now. So I’m a Detective Chief Inspector at the moment, rank-wise. So I first became a FLO when I joined a murder team about 15 years ago. Family liaison officer is one of the core roles within murder investigations, as well as other aspects of policing, but that was my start. Really, really rewarding, but challenging role within murder investigation. And then, as I got promoted, I picked up a family liaison coordinator role, which is something I still do to this day.

Alexis: OK, that’s brilliant. Thank you. How about for you, Lou?

Lou Pye: Yeah, I’m a retired officer, having worked with Sussex Police from 1988 to 2018. So I’ve been retired now three years ago. And I started my FLO journey right back when it started in 1998/99, and that was when I was involved with our training department and I volunteered to look at the training as it was developed, to see if I could help roll it out within Sussex. So I started training it and then became an FLO myself, and then, over the years, progressed to be an FLA – a family liaison advisor. And then a family liaison coordinator, sort of doing the job but also managing a team at the same time. And then, like I say, I retired in 2018, but I’ve actually continued the work in a different arena, in a different field. So I’ve had the real fortune of being able to take what I learnt from my role within Sussex Police and my experiences in the wider field, and I’m now doing that in my day job within NHS investigations.

Alexis: OK, so it’s kind of stuck with you, really. You’ve taken it out of the police and taken it somewhere else completely.

Lou Pye: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s a really growing area within the arena that I’m in now, which I’m really glad to see. And there’s lots of differences – many, many differences, but there are many similarities as well. So to take that experience and use it elsewhere is really interesting for me.

Alexis: So in both of those descriptions you’ve just given, they sound like they’re very rewarding, but also very challenging as well. And let’s start with the rewarding aspect first. What is it that you find rewarding about the role? If I come to you first, Lou, and then we’ll come to you, Kate.

Lou Pye: I think I’ll often be heard to say that it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my service, but actually one of the best things I’ve ever done in my service. And I think, for me, it’s hard for many reasons, which we’ll come on to I’m sure, but the rewarding element is something so tragic and something so difficult has happened. We can’t prevent that happening, so to speak, within our role, but what we can do is try and guide families and support families, and help them through that process, whilst also contributing to the quality of an investigation – the information, the evidence.

And actually, it’s really humbling to be allowed into someone’s life at such a difficult time. And to be a large part of the time and questions and answers and conversations that you have with someone over that period of time is really quite humbling. And I think it’s a real privilege to be able to go into families and conduct that role and make a difference to them, but also make a difference to the quality of the investigation as well.

Alexis: And I think that’s the part that maybe a lot of people maybe don’t understand – like almost a dual aspect to the role, I think, isn’t there? Kate, how about for you? What do you find rewarding about doing the role?

Kate Kieran: Yeah, well I think Lou sums it up really, really well, and I think most family liaison officers that we both work with would say similar. It’s the fact that, certainly within serious investigation like a murder investigation, where you have got so much that you need to communicate to a family, but also ask the family to tell you about, to help inform that investigation, that actually you do that with sort of a degree of sensitivity that doesn’t cause any more harm or grief to that family. That’s the kind of the goal that you go in as a family liaison officer, and you can’t ever make anything any better, but you just desperately don’t want to make it any worse.

And the training that goes into that, and then having those particular roles and the relationships that you develop – professional – with a family, I think is the most rewarding part of that. And then, deep down as a detective, if you can bring someone to justice for what’s happened, if it’s that sort of an investigation, then that is a satisfying moment with a family. I mean, it’s never enough, it never brings anyone back, but it is something that the families do sort of appreciate. And having been by their side and allowing them to understand what’s going through that criminal justice, that court processes is really, really rewarding.

Alexis: I imagine as well, for families as a whole, obviously whilst trying to come to terms with whatever has happened, they’re also plunged into a world of different language and court processes and all that kind of new information that, when you’re in a place of feeling probably traumatised, and as you described, those tragic circumstances, it’s hard to take that stuff onboard, isn’t it? It’s hard to retain information, never mind understand the process, and also the waits that you might have to have and everything else that goes with it.

Kate Kieran: Yeah, it’s a really complex process. I mean, even for experienced police officers, I’d suggest the criminal justice process is complex and difficult to follow. So add on to that someone who is going through grief and trauma, it’s amazing what the families actually can take on and go through. But yeah, it is complex and hard.

Alexis: Do you think, Lou, when you when you both just described there about that relationship you form with a family, it feels like you’ve got to be very conscious, haven’t you, about how you engage people and the rapport that you build and the support that you put in-place as well. How does that feel when you’ve seen a family all the way through a process and you are probably integral to them having gone through the whole thing, from beginning to end? How does it feel for you when it’s done – whatever the outcome has been of that investigation?

Lou Pye: I think there’s two things to that. I think, one, you’ve got to be very careful with the extent to which you do that. Because at the point where you’ve finished your role, you’ll be leaving that family, and what you can’t be is the person that answers everything and deals with everything for them. Because at the point where you leave, they need to be able to do that themselves. So I think managing expectations, both ways, is really important from the beginning. But I think it can be very empowering. I think if you do the role well and you explain it properly, you manage those expectations in the way that I’ve just said, and you introduce your role and the parameters of it. And what you can’t do as well as what you can do, then actually what you’re doing is giving choices where there’s choices to be made. You’re giving some control back to families when their control has been taken away by what’s happened.

And really importantly, as I said before, you know, you’re contributing to the investigation, subject to what type of investigation it is. But very importantly, you’re explaining something to allow that family to fully understand what’s happening, why it’s happening, and to answer their questions in general, really. So as I say, very empowering if it’s done well, but with a word of caution that those expectations have to be handled very carefully.

Alexis: Yeah, it sounds very similar to the kind of boundaries I would think about in the work that I do, so that people do understand what the expectations are, but also what, as you said, what isn’t on offer, isn’t something that you can do or can’t be involved in. It’s got to be really clear, I think, hasn’t it? Because when you’re in a desperate place, you want as much help as you possibly can from anybody, I think, and you want answers. So I guess it’s having to be very clear about that.

Lou Pye: Yeah, and for example, a really simple example about how contactable you are, you know, when you’ve formed a professional relationship with a family, you want to do everything you can for them, but that has to be managed very carefully. You can’t be there 24 hours a day, you can’t be the person that answers every single question outside of the investigation itself. And you can’t be rung at nine o’clock at night, three o’clock in the morning, and they’re the sorts of times that families may think of questions or they may be distressed, or they may have something going on in their lives that they need to talk to you about. So it’s really sensitively managing that in a way that keeps your boundaries yourself, so that your resilient isn’t tested more than it needs to be. And also, the family have the support mechanisms in-place that actually will be there long after you’ve left. So keeping those sorts of boundaries in-place – extremely important.

Alexis: Kate, when we’re talking about contributing to the investigation and also supporting and managing a family as well, do the family understand that that’s part of the remit around the investigation as well? Because I imagine that that might throw up difficulties during the course of investigations.

Kate Kieran: Yeah, no, that’s something that we’re really, really clear on our role. So essentially, we are investigators within the family liaison role. So we’re always really open and honest with families about exactly what our role is. Family liaison officers would expect to be that two-way communication between the senior investigating officer and that family. So that would be taking on responsibility for passing on updates on the investigation, for example, to them, but quite often, if it’s been a close knit sort of investigation – a murder within quite a tight community – the family will get given information, for example, about the murder. There’ll be rumours that are being passed around.

And actually, on my most recent investigation, I can count a number of times where the family liaison officer is getting that information from the family and that gets fed back into the investigation. So the family know that, and actually, you never know where that piece of information might lead you as an investigator in terms of looking for those suspects or looking for something that could help with the case. So yeah, we’re really clear on it, but it’s a definite two-way street.

Alexis: Absolutely. So in terms of your experiences of having been in this role for a long time – I daren’t even count up the years between you as to how many years you’ve been doing this role – but what kinds of challenges have you come across? I guess you’re supporting people when they’re at their most vulnerable and their most needy, and there must be an impact that that has on you, professionally, but also personally, potentially. Lou, I don’t know if you want to pick that up first.

Lou Pye: So if I take one of these sort of early challenges that I faced that I think still exists, but maybe not quite in such an extreme way, is the challenges that come to mind first, to me, are not particularly from the family. It’s from colleagues. And what I mean by that is a lack of understanding of the role by those that don’t do it. I think, go back a lot of years – and I do mean a lot of years – it was seen very much as a sort of tea and sympathy-type role and a very pastoral role. And it took a very, very long time to convince many people within the organisation that actually it was an investigative role and a very important one. And I think, for me, some of my early frustrations were around people understanding that.

I think within those that do it, it was very much understood, because it was shared experiences that we all had and that we learnt from, etc. But yeah, I think outside of the role, there’s still some misunderstanding or innocent ignorance of what it involves. And I think that, for me, is probably one of the sort of hardest pressures in the early days. Now, that’s not to say that there’s not many other pressures with the actual doing of the job, you know, and it’s very emotional, it’s very time-consuming. It challenges your resilience to the core. It absolutely does. I heard someone once say that every time you do an FLO role, you leave a piece of yourself with that family. And I think that’s a really quite graphic analogy, but I think a very fair one. But yeah, for me, the frustration from within the organisation in the early days, and I’m glad to say that’s changed a lot in recent years.

Alexis: You’re listening to the ‘Keeping the Peace’ podcast, produced in collaboration between Oscar Kilo, the National Police Wellbeing Service, and Fortis Therapy and Training.

I was just thinking, when you were saying that, that even in the media and just TV shows, I remember when I was a kid that that role was kind of like, you know, somebody – usually a woman in her uniform, stood to the side.

Lou Pye: With a hat on, yeah.

Alexis: Yes, with a hat on.

Lou Pye: Back of the room with her hat on.

Alexis: I can visualise it, had a cup of tea. Yeah. And quite kind of – I don’t know – there but not really contributing in any way. And it’s stigma, I guess, isn’t it? Kate, have you found the same frustrations in terms of colleagues as Lou was describing?

Kate Kieran: Yeah, I mean, it’s been talked about previously. Certainly, earlier on, there was a real misunderstanding of the role, especially when you’re not working in that sort of environment. I’m really pleased to say that, having worked both in murder investigations and around mass disaster when there’s lots of victims, everyone understands the role. They understand what the role entails, how hard it can be. And it’s a really recognised core role now within murder investigations, so it’s definitely moved on. But Lou is quite right in terms of those that just don’t understand that role. I mean, I would say, the challenges, really ,that I’ve been through personally, but also seen other colleagues, is when actually relationships with families are difficult.

Because, for a number of reasons, whether it be that, actually, people just don’t click as people. We’re always professional, but there is elements of sometimes when people just don’t particularly get on. And I’ve had that in a role that I undertook as a family liaison officer. Or actually, those that are really traumatised and really going through the grief process, where actually, there’s nothing you can do to ease that or communicate effectively, because you can’t bring back the person they’ve lost. So actually, there is nowhere to go in terms of that relationship, and you feel like you failed, really, if you reach that point. And it doesn’t happen often, but those are the bits that are really challenging, where there are some just really difficult conversations and difficult communications, both ways – between the police and families.

Alexis: When you describe that, it just feels quite powerless. Obviously, as you’ve said, ultimately, you can’t change what’s happened, but the role is to support the people through the process, isn’t it, and to investigate. But I guess there is that sense of powerlessness, to some extent, that you can’t change it, and I think that’s – you’re sitting with other people in their helplessness as well, I guess.

Lou Pye: I was going to say, Kate mentioned earlier about the open and honesty, and that’s really, really important. And sometimes being that open and honest with families doesn’t go down well, because you have to be very honest about what can and can’t happen. And sometimes a family will ask something of you that you actually cannot achieve for them, and we will be open about that. We will explain why we can’t do it. But often, that can sometimes be a breakdown in communication or a breakdown of a relationship can happen at that point. But again, that’s about managing expectations from the beginning. And as Kate said, it’s quite a rare occurrence, in my experience. But that openness and honesty has to remain, because it would be seen as being a very different role if that wasn’t there.

Alexis: Absolutely. It could actually get in the way, couldn’t it, actually, the investigation and everything. The whole purpose of being there, really. In terms of your experiences over the years, do you feel that there’s been – we’ve been thinking about in the second series, thinking about that kind of vicarious trauma – being the impact of supporting people through their own traumas and the impact on you as individuals. Do you think that that has impacted on either of you? And if so, in what way? Shall I go to Kate first?

Kate Kieran: On a personal level, I’m really comfortable to say it hasn’t, but I’ve seen other colleagues who’ve struggled just with the impact of the grief that they’ve perhaps taken onboard from an investigation or being with that family. I’ve seen colleagues struggle with that. So on a personal note, I’ve been OK and I’ve been lucky enough to have good family and friends and support and outside activities outside of work that I think have kept me on-track and been able to deal with that. But I’m also fully aware of the impact it really can have. And actually, then the responsibility that I would have, and Lou, when we’re in the coordinating role, the management role, to be looking after staff and making sure people are looked after and checked on, it becomes even more crucial in this particular role.

Alexis: Absolutely. How about from your perspective, Lou?

Lou Pye: So I think, a bit like Kate just finished by saying there – during the coordination and the management role of it, I think part of our responsibilities to look out for the wellbeing of the teams and you’re very attuned to what you’re looking for. But from a personal point of view, I believe, within this work that everyone has something that could trigger them. Whether they ever experience that trigger is another matter. What to do about it when you experience that trigger is another matter again. For me, personally, I got very close to it affecting me, and one of my triggers was involving children. And I think that’s a very common situation in the colleagues that I’ve worked with.

And on one particular occasion of a scene that I attended, it was, there was too many personal links to my private life that meant that it got very close to it affecting me quite badly. Because I wasn’t looking at what I was looking at. I was looking at my situation in place of what I was seeing. But I recognised it very quickly and therefore you can start building in your coping mechanisms of what to do about it. So for me, that’s been the sort of the personal side where it’s got very close to affecting to me. And I think the other side – and Kate, again, has touched on this – that with the mass fatality situations, although I wouldn’t say it’s affected me negatively as such, I think there’s a very different feel to those investigations or those enquiries, because the volume is there, that it impacts on you more because of the volume.

So the complexity might be there as well or it might not be, but the volume makes it feel very different. And I know, Kate and I have been involved in a number of situations where that sort of almost tangible grief is there when you’ve collectively got a number of people that are affected by the same incident.

Alexis: Yeah, I can only imagine that and the impact that that has on the people working on that investigation as well. And when you’re thinking about how you have coped, you just touched there, Kate, on having things outside of work and a good support network, which are crucial, aren’t they? When you’ve managed people in this role and they haven’t got those things in-place, what impact can that have?

Kate Kieran: I’ve seen people previously get really drawn into the family liaison role. I mean, we all get drawn into an investigation when it’s just starting. It’s so intense, the first couple of weeks, if not months, are just really full-on. And the family liaison officer, it’s those boundaries that you see that Lou mentioned earlier – trying to set the boundaries of, actually my phone’s going to be off at eight o’clock tonight. Actually, you can sometimes spot that people haven’t done that, that they will take phone calls on their days off when they really should be setting the boundaries of things like that. And it’s a real difficult balance when you see an investigation first start, when it’s highly intense and people are working lots and lots of hours.

And you see, perhaps too many meetings, when actually you’re kind of like you would be checking in terms of making sure that actually they’re offering – the communication between the senior investigating officer and the family, and they aren’t picking up essentially too much of a counselling role. We are not trained counsellors. We never have been. We are not their person to be there to support them. Because actually, we don’t know what we’re doing in terms of properly trained counsellors. So previously I’ve seen people, and it’s my job now to make sure that doesn’t happen. But people feel as if they are being the rock for that family, and with that, that starts to cross those professional lines of just offering yourself too much towards that family. Because you want to help, because you want to do a really good job.

Alexis: I was going to say, it’s coming from a kind of good place in that you want to meet their needs, but it’s not actually what you’re there to do in terms of the role.

Kate Kieran: No, it’s not but previously – and actually, the third sector, our charity support and victim Support, are so much better now at offering all of those needs that are required in terms of taking people through emotional and practical needs. Whereas actually, previously, the family liaison officer would kind of be the only person there picking those things up. So I’ve seen it before where people have had to take time off of the FLO role because they needed a break, which is something that they can do. It’s a voluntary role, despite it being trained, so people can take time off if they need to.

And actually, if they’re going through a particularly personal time as well – it might be a breakup or it might be the loss of someone themselves on a personal level, then actually, that’s the time where you need to balance whether or not they should be performing the role. Or actually, whether or not they do need to do the role, because that might help as well. So it’s a real fine balance of making sure people are still emotionally and professionally doing the role and doing that good job.

Alexis: Do you have kind of mechanisms in-place, Lou, in terms of space to think about those things and reflection? Or does that come from experience of actually knowing what signs to look out for in terms of managing people who are doing this role and being able to pick up on some of the signs? Or is it something that actually has mechanisms within it that mean that people can kind of come forward and say, “Actually, I’m struggling,” or can reflect on their motives or what’s going on? How does it work from that point of view?

Lou Pye: I think now it’s an awful lot better than it used to be. I don’t think it used to be that great. But now, wellbeing resilience support is so much better across police forces, in general. So Kate mentioned earlier about these people that do this role are volunteers, and I think a lot of people don’t realise that, a) they’re volunteers and, b) they’ve got a day job. And sometimes the pressures come from managing the day job and this job as well. So the reason I mention that is the line management of people that do this role, sometimes their day job might notice something or sometimes the management within the family liaison world might notice something.

So all police forces have procedures in-place for occupational health, for employee assistance programmes, and a lot of forces also recognise the role of a family liaison officer as an additional – what’s referred to as a ‘vulnerable role’. So it has a more inbuilt system to monitor and to provide space and opportunity to talk about it. And if someone needs to have some support, they will know, within their own force area, what those options are. I think, for me, in my experience, a lot of that support comes best from peer support and from those colleagues around you that understand the role, because they also do the role. And certainly, for me, the best support I’ve had are from other FLOs who, in my words, ‘get it’. They understand. You don’t have to give the detail.

Obviously, we’re not allowed to talk about the detail, but if you say, “I’ve had a tough day today on an FLO job, blah, blah, blah,” you don’t need to say much more because they understand the pressures you’re under. So there’s the informal support and the coping mechanisms people have as individuals within their friends, family, peers, colleagues, etc. But there’s also the formal support route within each force area. And I certainly think that’s developed in the last probably five years, that’s developed into a much, much better service now than it was before.

Alexis: Yeah, definitely. It sounds like it’s really important to recognise the impact and, actually, the more structures you’ve got in and around people – and also, like you were saying, Kate, if you’ve got other services who come in and offer other aspects of the support roles, if you like. Whether it’s about helping people through the grief process or whatever, it’s almost a bit more like a multi-professional approach, really, rather than it being down to one person to be able to kind of manage all of that themselves.

Kate Kieran: Yeah, it’s definitely – that’s the picture now really, we are so much better at working with our third sector charity agencies and victim support, and the NHS, that it really does allow the police, the family liaison officer, to signpost. And work with those other professionals to make sure people are hopefully taking up the help they need with the grief and trauma and practical sides. That then really makes those boundaries of what the family liaison officer is doing as a police officer really, really clear.

Alexis: Absolutely. So if someone’s listening to this and they were thinking about going into this role – and we’re thinking about this from a wellbeing perspective and a mental health perspective – what do you think they need to be conscious of if they’re coming in to take on an FLO route, if they’re going to look to volunteer to do the role? Kate, I’m coming to you first. There’s a a wry smile.

Kate Kieran: Do you know what? I remembered I was – so there’s a couple of things. You need to be – in the police certainly side of things – unless you’re in roads policing, so you can be a police constable to be a family liaison officer in roads policing, but actually, within other investigations, you’d need to be a detective because of the investigator role. So that’s a national piece. But I remember when I first went to a introduction to the FLO role, and I was quite a young PC – I think it was just at a time before when you could still be a PC – a police constable – before becoming a detective. I remember listening to the role as a FLO, and I had no idea. And I remember just thinking, ‘I can’t do that. There’s no way’.

Because it was being so close to a family going through so much grief and trauma, and I just thought, ‘I’m just going to cry all the time if I do that. I can be remote and deal with it, everything else, but I can’t be with that family’. So it took a number of years for me to kind of do other roles and just realise that, actually, I was in a place where I could then do a professional role. So I think you need to be aware of what the role entails and any of your family liaison coordinators – or if the force has a family liaison advisor – will be able to give you a real honest opinion. But speak to family liaison officers about the role, because it isn’t for everyone.

It is something that you really need to think carefully about, about whether or not you can be so close to a grieving family or grieving friends at a time when you have got that job to do. So yeah, I just remember, it did take me a long time to get round to thinking, ‘I’m experienced enough, shall I say, to pick up that role’.

Alexis: I was just going to say, timing sounds actually quite important. That you might be interested in it, but whether you’re in the right place to do it can be two different things, can’t it?

Kate Kieran: And there’s – and Lou will correct me if I’m wrong here – but certainly, within the London police, within the Met Police, there’s a psychological screening test that gets done before you pick up or even get put through to the training. You also have to be sort of spoken to by the family liaison coordinator once you’ve put your hand in the air to volunteer, and actually, they have got a responsibility to think about whether the people volunteering are the right sorts of people to pick up these sorts of roles. So there’s a couple of safety nets at the start. And then, after every deployment, there should be a debrief with that family liaison coordinator to kind of talk through what’s gone well and what hasn’t.

Where that ongoing management responsibility comes in with making sure people are – ‘robust’ is the wrong word, probably. It’s not about being robust. It’s about managing professionally your commitment to that particular role and how it might affect you and being honest about whether it is.

Alexis: Yeah, I imagine that’s actually – it’s the honesty part. When you were saying ‘robust’, I was thinking resilience, and whether it’s about resilience or something else, I don’t know. Lou, what’s your thoughts about that?

Lou Pye: I think it’s a case of, is it right for you at that particular time in your life, in your professional career and your personal life? Is it right for you? And there’s all the bit about doing your homework to understand what the role is, going through whatever application process your force has. But I think, for me, thinking back, the family liaison courses that I used to run – the family liaison coordinator courses I used to run – it almost, without exception, on about midway through day two of the family liaison course, we used to call it a ‘lightbulb moment’. Because you could see people would come in on the Monday morning thinking, ‘oh yeah, this will be all right. A bit of an extra job here’. Maybe done a bit of homework. But by mid-morning on day two, in some cases, it was rabbit in the headlights, because it was like, ‘I had no idea how complicated this is’.

So as far as whether it’s right for you in your professional and personal world, it’s having the honesty and the confidence to say, even if you’ve done the training course and gone through all the steps, to actually turn around and say, “ Do you know what? Now I know a bit more about it, maybe it’s not right for me just now.” And I think that honesty continues when you’re doing the job as well. Because whether you need a break or whether you need to come off completely, everyone’s got limits, your stress bucket can only get so full before it overflows. And you’ll get close to that on occasions, I would suggest.

And it’s being able to step forward and say, for whatever reason, “I actually need some support,” or for whatever reason, “I actually need to have a break away from it now, because I can’t do a good service to the families, and I can’t look after myself if I continue the way things are.” So yeah, there’s lots of mechanisms in-place to support people, but ultimately, you know how you feel with whether you’re in the right place to do it or not at that particular time.

Alexis: Yeah, and I think that it’s almost like being able to track yourself, isn’t it? Like you said about triggers earlier, know what your triggers are. You might not know what they are until you’re in it, but if you’ve then realised, it’s then about saying it and stepping forward. And I think that’s something that we’ve talked quite a bit about across these different podcasts, around being open to saying, “Actually, I’m finding this really difficult.” Or, “That’s just really upset me or triggered me,” or whatever, and it’s hard to do that sometimes, especially when you really want to do a good job and you don’t want to be seen to be letting the team down or you don’t want to be seen to be letting the investigation down. And there’s all these pressures, isn’t there, within the role, I think, that means that you might carry on longer than you maybe should or would do because you feel that sense of responsibility.

Lou Pye: I think one of the things that I often talk about is, it’s almost like, after each deployment or even after each meeting or event that you’ve conducted as an FLO, you need to know what your reset button is. And your reset button has to allow you to process what you’ve just done and be ready for the next thing. And at the point comes where you’re not able to effectively reset, something needs to change, and understanding what that change is will be different for different people, obviously.

Alexis: And hopefully, recognise that before you get to the point where you actually fully need to reset, because that’s when we start to see people struggling and being unwell, isn’t it? I think that emotional intelligence – and you talked there about the stress bucket and all the stuff that kind of we’re holding in that bucket, but also what you might be doing to help lower those levels within the bucket as well. All that external support, or it might be activities, self-care, you know, all that stuff as well, that has to be kind of central, doesn’t it, to be able to support others. Especially when there’s a level of emotion going on around the actual job you’re doing every time. It’s not like that gets less. As you said, it might be a mass incident where there’s lots and the volume is huge, but every time you go towards supporting a family, there’s always that emotional fallout that you’re going to have to deal with. Kate, do you think that, in your experience, that the circumstances around people asking for help and then that kind of willingness to come forward and say that is better now than it’s been?

Kate Kieran: It is better. I’d say it is better, but I’d say it’s probably not good enough.

Alexis: There’s work to do.

Kate Kieran: I think there is still a lot more work to do. I think you can see it, but the amount of work that we’ve got on across every police force at the moment is immense. So with that responsibility of putting your hand up in particular with the FLO role and saying, “You know, actually, I might need a break,” or, “I might need to come away for a little while and do something else,” that puts pressure on your colleagues and your peers, because then they’re picking up more work. So people become – don’t want to let people down, and actually there’s a balance. So I’ve seen some people not put their hand up and line management not spot it soon enough. Because people are very good at hiding things until things properly fall down.

So I think, again, it comes from people wanting to do a really good job, not wanting to appear weak in as they might see it. But actually, you know, it’s, I think there are mechanisms now, it’s not the same stigmas in terms of coming forward and sort of taking a break. We’ve got to look after ourselves from a wellbeing point of view. It should be at the forefront of everything we’re doing. We really should be looking after ourselves and our staff, so that actually everyone can continually be effective in their roles. So I think there’s still work to do, but it definitely is much better.

Alexis: It’s on the right trajectory, by the sounds of it. It’s going in the right direction. We’re just coming to the end of the podcast and I just wanted to say thank you, really, to both of you to coming to talk to me. And I think everything you’ve talked about will give people a real insight into the challenges of the role and the reality of the role as well. And I know we haven’t talked about specifics in terms of some of the things that you’ve supported and investigated, but I think we’ve got a real flavour of the challenges of the role and the different boundaries you have to have in-place. And thinking about self-care and also recognising signs in others as well of struggle that sometimes we don’t recognise in ourselves.

It’s almost like, as a manager, you have to pick that up for people as well. So thanks ever so much for coming to talk to me. This podcast will be available on every platform, so please feel free to download and share and listen to all the other podcasts as well. That’d be brilliant. Thanks very much, both of you and we’ll be back soon. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you for listening to the ‘Keeping the Peace’ podcast. It’s available wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you subscribe, you’ll be notified of the next episode as soon as it’s available. We’d love to hear your feedback and ideas for future podcasts, so please do comment or get in touch on our social media platforms for either Fortis Therapy and Training or Oscar Kilo.

Keeping the Peace Series 2, Episode 7 – In Response

Alexis: Hello and welcome to the Keeping the Peace podcast. I’m Alexis Powell-Howard and today I’m joined by Sergeant Pete Musgrave from Humberside Police. Pete and I have done quite a lot of different pieces of work together over the last few years and part of that’s been in his role within the Police Federation, as well, so I’m really looking forward to speaking to Pete today.

Hi, Pete.

Pete Musgrave: Afternoon, Alexis, are you alright?

Alexis: I’m alright thank you, thanks for coming to join me.

Pete Musgrave: No problem at all.

Alexis: So this episode is really about response policing and, you know, all the trials and tribulations and wonderful stuff that goes with that. I hope you can see these raid eyebrows on a podcast. I just wondered, firstly, if you can give us a bit of an insight into what we mean by response policing, just for those people who maybe don’t know.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, absolutely. So, I suppose, it’s the cornerstone, the bedrock of police work, really.

Alexis: No banter about that from anyone, at all.

Pete Musgrave: No, not at all. It’s when, you know, you pick up the phone and you dial 999 because there’s a problem, an emergency, we are the frontline of it, we are the ones that will respond to that emergency and come and try and sort it out to the best of our ability. And it’s 24/7, it’s 365, it’s full on, and it’s hard work but rewarding work.

Alexis: So have you always done response policing or have you had other roles in the police, because how long have you been in policing for?

Pete Musgrave: So 19 years this year and it’s a relatively new thing for me, really, response policing. I started life in Grimsby when I was initially posted there as a probationer, as they were then, and we were on a small local policing team so we did a bit of response, we did a bit of neighbourhood, we did a bit of everything, really, in a close team working on a specific area of Grimsby.

From then on I moved into more community policing rather than the response work and then I went into, sort of, a multi-agency role after that working with offenders and did a bit of federation work, as well, as you’ve already alluded to. And then I was fortunate enough to get promoted and I’ve come back to 24/7 policing again, which has been a real eye opener for me, yes, doing nights again.

Alexis: I was going to say, is it the shift work that’s the eye opener?

Pete Musgrave: Yes, it’s a killer, especially at my age.

Alexis: It’s tiredness.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, it is, absolutely.

Alexis: So when you went into policing 19 years ago what led you into that path, why did you choose policing?

Pete Musgrave: Good question. I think it probably stems back from as early as 1984, now, you and I will both probably remember sort of 84, you more than me because you’re older than me. Yes, and it was during the miners’ strike, now, we lived in a little village called Belton on the Isle of Axholme with my parents and my sister. And we had a miner across the road who was actually breaking the picket line, and I don’t know how long it was for but it seemed like an age we had a police van parked outside our lane, outside our house, for I don’t know how long it was but it seemed like a long time.

And me and my sister used to go and bother them probably, actually, as a three or four year old at the time, I used to go and bother them and we used to talk to them. They seemed alright, you know, I got talking to a few of them, as you do as a four year old, and I had a picture taken with a hat and riot shield and stuff like that. That’s probably my first, earliest memory, I guess, of policing and, yes, just from there I always wanted to do it, really.

I suppose, as I’ve got a bit older and a bit more mature, allegedly, you know, it’s about that public service, I guess, that’s always interested me and something I wanted to do. So it’s evolved, you know, but that’s probably where it all started from many, many years ago.

Alexis: Yes, from a really young age, actually, four years old is tiny, really, to have been that curious about what’s going on.

Pete Musgrave: That’s it, and if you speak to my mother I’m sure she’s got a photo or two of me with said police officers from that time, and she was always ferrying them cups of tea and biscuits and what not. And, yes, I remember it quite vividly, actually, for a four year old.

Alexis: So how old were you when you went into the police force then?

Pete Musgrave: That’s a good question, how old was I, 21, just turning 22, 21/22, so fresh out of university and then straight into it and posted to Grimsby. I went through the process and, yes, I landed there and, you know, that was it, 19/20 years ago, never looked back, I don’t think. Although sometimes I do wish, I think, what if I’d taken the left road rather than the right road, you know, I might have gone somewhere different, we’ll never know.

Alexis: OK. Because I know we, obviously, knew each other originally from the Police Fed, wasn’t it?

Pete Musgrave: Yes, it was.

Alexis: We were doing therapeutic work for you and … So, again, just give a bit of an explanation about what the Police Federation is for those people who maybe aren't aware or don’t know everything it covers.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. So, I suppose, in layman’s terms the Police Federation is the police union, although we can’t call it a union because we’re not allowed to join a union. Because if you’re a member of a union you’ve got certain industrial rights that accompany that and, clearly, I suppose, the main one we all talk about is the right to strike. Well, clearly, that would be problematical if police officers could do that for the good of the nation.

So we don’t actually have a union but the federation is a staff association that looks after all our rights and the police regulations, it supports officers in welfare matters, equality matters, misconduct, criminal stuff, you know, a whole range and raft of things that we look to support officers with that’s what we do. I suppose, it’s what a union would do but we’re not allowed to be a union so we’re a staff association. We pay into that like you would in anything and those subs are used then to fund the interventions and the services that we provide.

Alexis: And so people who are a rep for the Police Fed, if you like, is that like a voluntary aspect of the job?

Pete Musgrave: It is.

Alexis: So you fit that in around the day job?

Pete Musgrave: You do, yes. So if you’re a workplace rep, and they’re based across the force both North Bank and South Bank, you know, you think, yes, that’s’ something I want to do assist police officers, so you get elected into that role and then you support officers in whatever trials and tribulations come along for them. And, you know, that’s in essence what workplace repping is.

Alexis: I think being a rep is quite a challenging role, really, because there’s quite a lot of different hats you wear within that role, isn’t there?

Pete Musgrave: There is and you never know what you’re going to get, you know, even within a niche, so if someone comes to you with a misconduct matter until you really get into the weeds of it and understand it they’re all different, there’s all sorts of nuances and things like that. So it is varied, again, in the equality world, same again with things like that it’s such a wide … inequality covers such a massive umbrella of issues.

So it’s wide and varied, the training is really good, you know, and if people get on board with it and reps get stuck into it it becomes really fulfilling and rewarding, I think.

Alexis: Yes. And, I suppose, having worked with some of the people that you might be repping it’s an important role for those police officers, isn’t it, that might be under investigation or whatever is going on.

Pete Musgrave: It is because you wouldn’t get that intervention without our intervention first, so we need to be able to take somebody with their issues and know where to signpost them to or get that intervention and that help. So it’s really key in getting them the help they need, particularly if they’ve got some really complex issues.

And I know, like we’ve talked about many times, we’ve referred lots of people to you who’ve got some quite complex needs. Because, at the end of the day, yes, we’re police officers but we are human beings and we deal with some pretty nasty stuff and it can affect people in different ways. So, you know, we are that first port of call, if you like, before we can refer them onto the subject matter experts, like yourselves, really.

Alexis: I was just thinking that part of your role in response policing and also the bedrock role as well, both of those I think you’re walking into situations and you don’t know what you’re walking into. So, in different ways but very similar in terms of a theme across both those areas, how do you manage that? Because, obviously, like you said, police officers are human and I think that’s often forgotten when you look in the press, you know, that’s not really thought about. But how do you manage that personally, how do you, kind of, manage whatever you’re … you know, you might react to something or you might be triggered by something or whatever, how do you manage that?

Pete Musgrave: Well, I mean, my day job involves predominantly staff welfare anyway, yes, I do look after a team and I ensure we get to jobs and timeliness and all that sort of thing. But, actually, the vast majority of it is looking after staff welfare and making sure that, because of the nature of the job they’re doing, it’s looking after them. I suppose, you’re going to say, well, who looks after you then in terms of …

Alexis: It’s like we’ve had these conversations before, Pete.

Pete Musgrave: It’s amazing, isn’t it, sixth sense, really.

Alexis: I don’t even need to be here.

Pete Musgrave: No, you don’t, I can reel it off. It is about having your own support network, either outside of the job, so if you come home to family and friends, or internally if you know where to go. And I know where to go internally, certainly, when I need a natter with somebody who knows how I tick and operate and I can go and do that.

Alexis: Yes. I was just thinking, it’s almost like having the tools in the toolkit, isn’t it, you might not need some of that some of the time but there’s times when you do. And I think it’s knowing yourself well enough to know when you need to step into certain bits of support or friendship conversations or whatever it might be.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, that’s pretty much it. You know, you do need to know, because this isn’t all the time, this is a minority of the time, but you do need to be aware of when it is becoming an issue and know how to signpost yourself, if you like, or know where to find that additional help. Because it is hard work and the demand is now picking up, you know, with COVID regulations, sort of, subsiding a little bit our demand is going up. And officers haven't had that for 18 months or so, two years, so they’re in a mindset of less demand and that’s now starting to ramp up and pick up. So I think I can see more issues on the horizon, I guess, as we move into unlocking, so to speak.

Alexis: You’re listening to the Keeping the Peace podcast produced in collaboration between Oscar Kilo, the National Police Wellbeing Service, and Fortis Therapy and training.

Yes, and I guess, as well, any new recruits that have come on board in the past, what, couple of years, really.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, pretty much.

Alexis: They won’t really have had that experience of it being full on.

Pete Musgrave: No, they won’t, and it could be a bit of a shock to some of them, I’m not saying all of them because I would imagine them coming into policing knowing what it’s about, 24/7 and all of that. But still to be on the back of a relentless shift and demands going job to job to job, I can imagine that being a real eye opener to some of them, and that’s where we probably need to keep an eye on them and how they’re doing.

Alexis: Do you think that the police force are, kind of, more open to that now, because I know just in the years I’ve been involved I’ve seen a shift in them being more aware of some of those signs that might be happening for somebody who might be struggling?

Pete Musgrave: Certainly in our force, yes, I mean, if you talked to me five/six years ago I would have laughed at you and said, you know, it’s pretty rubbish really. I think certainly with new leadership and a new ethos around wellbeing we are improved and have improved massively. Yes, still work to be done, no two ways about it, but actually it is a priority for the force, officer wellbeing, so everything from their own personal issues that they’re having through to assaults on duties. And there’s a whole raft of interventions now that weren't available four/five years ago.

Alexis: Yes. So it’s more readily spoken about, I suppose, but also there are some more support mechanisms in place for people, as well, there are mor service options, aren't there?

Pete Musgrave: Totally. You know, counselling five years ago no one ever heard of it in terms of in the force, or certain interventions around senior officers even just making a phone call to you to say, are you alright because I heard that was a nasty job the other day. And that can be the chief ringing you to do that, you know, so that would have been unheard of. So we are making great strides into looking after staff but, like I said, there’s still more to be done with it but it is at the forefront of the force’s mind. I’m not saying that’s nationwide but certainly in our force it is.

Alexis: Yes, well, last week, I think, Humberside won the mental health award from Oscar Kilo for all the different schemes and things going on.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, second year in a row I think, from that I can gather.

Alexis: Yes, it’s incredible.

Pete Musgrave: Which is a real achievement and I’m testament to how we’ve all come together and tried to provide that holistic response to the problem, which is a problem, not just Humberside but national is a problem. So that is recognition indeed, to be fair, of the good work that’s gone on.

Alexis: Yes, especially with the year that’s been, as well, trying to keep those services going and the options open.

Pete Musgrave: Exactly. And, you know, with COVID, yes, I’m not saying we had massive absences but we had challenging absence, you know, around self-isolation and people testing positive and trying to make workplaces as COVID friendly as possible, you know, real big challenge. And people working from home and that creates in itself its own problem, if you’re not used to working from home and you’re having to work from home and you don’t have that support network then that presents its own mental health challenges there. So, yes, it’s testament to that, really.

Alexis: One of the things you said earlier was about that public service and that being something that you wanted to be involved in. And I think most police officers that I speak to that’s something that really drives them that idea about public service. But people who aren't in the police force don’t really understand what that means or what that’s about or why it might motivate people. Do you know why, or why is that something that’s so important?

Pete Musgrave: I don’t know. I guess, in any public sector organisation it’s why do nurses want to nurse, why do teachers want to teach, you know, what is it, why do we want to police. I think we’re just trying to make society that little bit better for everyone by dealing with people that are offending, as teachers are trying to educate kids and older kids into education. And it’s trying to make society a better place, that sounds really cliched doesn’t it, but there is something about that, trying to make things better, I guess.

Alexis: Yes, and as a whole, as well, it’s not just, kind of, in particular areas, is it, it’s for community across the board.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, and you can narrow it down to the area you work but, ultimately, what we’re trying to do is trying to make ‘Humberside,’ well the unitary authorities that make up Humberside, better places for everyone to live in, that’s the aim. As do all other public sector organisations, whatever niche they’re in they’re all trying to do that. So I think it’s quite a woolly answer, isn’t it, really, but that is the essence of what we’re trying to do.

Alexis: Yes. And I think that’s something that drives a lot of people in the police force and it isn’t necessarily something that people if you’re a layman may understand or may, kind of, really appreciate. I was thinking about, I mean, obviously, a certain football match happened yesterday, I don’t know when this will go out, but a certain football match happened yesterday which we won’t dwell on.

Pete Musgrave: No.

Alexis: But I’ve subsequently seen some of the police officers have been injured and, you know, all the stuff that’s come off the back of that. And there’s also that bit, isn’t there, the risk of what you’re walking into, the risk of how people might react to you, you know, what’s the offence in the first place all of that stuff. It’s calculating those risks all the time, isn’t it, depending on what’s going on.

Pete Musgrave: It is and a lot of the time it’s dynamics, so you’re having to do it on the hoof. I mean, yesterday, you’ve got a little bit more time to prepare but you can never mitigate all the risk because you just can’t, it’s not the nature of how it pans out. So you can have staff and resource and the right resource available but, actually, until it is happening in front of you and it’s going live and you have to be fluid and react accordingly. You just can’t do it all the time, you know, the risk can be quite high.

Alexis: Or it can be quite low and then escalate to high very quickly.

Pete Musgrave: Correct. And, like I said, with the dynamics you could be in a situation that’s nothing and it could turn into something quite horrendous in just a matter of moments. So, yes, we’re always having to do that, you know, that dynamic risk assessment, I guess, which is a challenge.

Alexis: Obviously, you’ve been promoted quite recently, wasn’t it, really?

Pete Musgrave: Yes, January.

Alexis: And gone into response policing, what is it you love about it?

Pete Musgrave: Well, I mean, every job is different so we are attending incidents, like I say, 24/7, it’s the variance of what we’re dealing with, I guess. I mean, some jobs are very, you know, we do a lot of domestic abuse and things like that, which isn’t the same but we deal with it in a very positive way. But then there are other jobs that come along that take you back and you have to really get involved with them and they’re far from mundane. And when I say they’re exciting I don’t mean that it’s fun to be there, but it actually gets you into the moment and trying to deal with it and use your own skillsets.

Alexis: It’s that adrenaline, as well, isn’t it?

Pete Musgrave: Yes, exactly right, and you think, yes, that’s why I joined, that’s what I’m here for, sort of thing. And rather than some of the run of the mill stuff that we deal with daily that’s the churn, if you like, the churn of response policing, you do get those jobs that do give you that buzz that sense of excitement and to get a conclusion from that.

Alexis: That’s what I was just going to ask you, actually, the conclusion is almost like the achievement of the job, you know what I mean, you’ve seen it through to the end. Because some of that stuff you’ll never know necessarily what the outcomes are.

Pete Musgrave: Exactly right, I mean, we don’t get to deal with a lot of things to conclusion but, actually, knowing that we’ve done our little bit in that cog to make that person’s life better, or whatever we’ve done to help, there’s a massive sense of satisfaction for me. And if it’s an officer I supervise I still get that same sense of satisfaction that they’re doing a good job and I tell them, you know, I would say that’s a good job, they’ve made a difference there. That’s repeated across wherever you work, that’s going on daily you just don’t hear about it but it’s happening all the time.

Alexis: And, like you say, when you’re managing a team of people it’s great to be able to have that … I was thinking about the difference between vicarious trauma and almost vicarious pride, like you take that pride in the fact that they’ve done a good job and they’ve had a good result.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. And it’s important you tell them, as well, because they think it’s just par for the course, and a lot of the work is par for the course and you just get on with it and do it. But, actually, several times a day they’re probably going over and above what they should be doing which is testament to them, I guess.

Alexis: Yes, absolutely. So what is it you find most challenging about this particular role and then, I guess, the other question is around the federate role, what’s more challenging about that?

Pete Musgrave: I guess, with response policing it’s that at the minute for me it’s fear of failure, I’m not new to the organisation but I’m actually new to the supervisory role, if you like, so I’m trying not to mess up anything that I do.

Alexis: Working really hard every shift.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. Trying to learn and get through it and become more experienced and whatever. But there is challenging stuff in welfare, like I told you, there are big challenges, people who have got issues both in and out of work and there’s things going on in their lives and it’s really difficult to address some of that. More so sometimes than the jobs we go to, I guess, it’s quite a tricky thing to navigate. But it is rewarding, you know, don’t get me wrong, the stuff we’re doing is good stuff and they are doing a good job daily.

Alexis: Yes. And, you’re right, it is a challenging job, isn’t it, but it’s also those, like you say, perhaps between what’s happening at home or private life and what’s happening professional as well. Because I was just thinking, we work in lots of different sectors at Fortis so some of the patterns that we see, as I say, in the chemical plants or the construction industry and that kind of thing, it’s quite similar in that they’re having to switch off one thing in order to focus on the other. Usually that’s private life, or what might be going on, worries about somebody or something or whatever, and trying to focus on the job in hand, if you like. But I think with policing you can do that for a certain amount of time but it’s how that, kind of, starts to seep through in some ways.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. And you can see the impact it has on their day job, if you like, because of the importance of their day job. So if they start making errors or performance lapses or they’re coming to work late or something is going on, then it stands out a mile because of the nature of the job we do. You know, we have to get it right and when we don’t the accountability and the transparency of the processes we’ve got they highlight that, more so than in other industries maybe.

Alexis: Yes, for sure, I agree with that.

Pete Musgrave: Because it’s people on the other end of it, you know, the community, somebody who is a victim or whatever, so we have to be … This is why I think it’s been really important the journey over the last five years to try and make it better for people to work in the organisation. Because we can highlight these issues sooner and have better signposting to where they need to be, whatever that looks like for them. So yes, it’s a tricky one.

Alexis: Yes, it’s the juggling act between the job, isn’t it, and like you say if you start to see somebody struggling just by the quality of the work they’re doing it’s then how you pick that up and how you pick that person up and figure out what’s going on before something happens further down the line that then the police then get involved in.

Pete Musgrave: Exactly. And particularly if they’re a really good performer and they excel at things and are really good, or whatever their area of business they’re in, it really shows and you’re like, what’s going on, you know, why the change. Then it could be all this outpouring of what’s going on and issues and that’s where we have to kick in and help them get through that as best we can.

Alexis: But that’s very dependent on supervision, isn’t it, because you might have a supervisor who doesn’t ask that question or doesn’t recognise those signs or step forward.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. It does, I mean, and sometimes you rely on other people to tell you because they’re so good at hiding whatever the problem is or don’t want to tell you about for whatever reason. But, yes, you have to try and tune into your staff, know your staff, and then be able to respond when there is an issue in a timely fashion, I think, because the longer you leave it, the festering, and if it’s not resolved it becomes chronic almost, I guess, and then you’ve got a real problem and you find it even harder to claw back what you’ve lost.

Alexis: Yes, and do you think, like you said there, in your new relatively, relatively speaking, that you’re trying to learn as much as you can and get that experience so that you’ve … That only comes with a bit of time, doesn’t it, actually getting that experience under your belt.

Pete Musgrave: Absolutely, so time I key. I mean, I guess, I’ve got a little bit of advantage because I know how to signpost, where to put people and through the fed work, really, in terms of where that welfare support lies and where to pitch in and what level to go in at. And show that bit of empathy that I have done for however many years doing the fed work that I’ve seen the whole range of officer experiences, I think that’s stood me in good stead for it, really.

But, as with anything, we’re always on a learning journey, aren't we, I don’t know anything by any stretch so it’s where your other supervisors and the boss and whatever you, sort of, bounce off.

Alexis: Yes, it’s knowing when to ask for that support yourself as well, isn’t it, to direct you or just, kind of, put heads together to figure out a way forward for somebody.

Pete Musgrave: That’s it, absolutely, no doubt about that.

Alexis: So when it comes to self-care, which is something that I bang on about all the time.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. Yes.

Alexis: Not in a boring way at all.

Pete Musgrave: No.

Alexis: What are the things that you do, how do you look after yourself? Because, obviously, you’re doing shift work, you’re doing a job that you never quite know what you’re responding to, you’re managing people, family life all that stuff as well.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. So …

Alexis: There should be answers to this.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, I know. As a colleague who shall remain nameless says, I like to pond swim, as he calls it, and I find that’s the best therapy, really, or get in a pool which I’ve not been able to do for a long time, albeit recently we’ve been back in. So, I guess, it’s being able to escape from and separate the work side from the welfare side, if you like, and what works for you, and that’s what works for me so that’s what I do.
Alexis: Have you always used swimming, because pond swimming, actually, do you know what I’ve noticed over the past few months is it’s massively become really popular, hasn’t it, there’s loads of people doing it.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. I mean, I should refer to it was open water swimming because that’s what it is, but …

Alexis: I know who calls it pond swimming.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, exactly. So, yes, from a very early age, you don’t as a kid think of it as a therapy.

Alexis: No, but it is.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, it will be, yes, absolutely, but you never see it like that, you just see it as swimming and that’s one way of doing it. But, actually, you know, you’re right it is absolutely therapy and now it is definitely therapy so that’s what I do. And then I’ve got a wife and kids and all that shebang, you know, all that malarky and a dog, so that’s what I do, yes.

Alexis: I can relate to the swimming because that’s something I’ve always done. And I think part of it for me has always been, I don’t know, there’s something about getting your breathing right, getting your thoughts, working them through, just being able to keep going until I’ve got to that point where I think, right, I can fathom that out. But also no one can talk to me, no one else can be involved in that, you know, it’s absolute head space, really, in some ways.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, and for both open water and pool, certainly open water, it depends on where you are but - you shouldn’t be alone because it’s not good to swim alone in open water – but you can take your head off in a natural environment. And, you know, I’ve swam in various beautiful lakes, Lock Lomond, all that sort of thing, so you’re in this amazing area and it makes you feel so much better and the water is cold and you can just ‘take your head off.’

The same in the pool, it’s not as good but the monotony, actually, I quite like the monotony of that sometimes, up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down, and that’s what you’re doing, you’re not thinking about other things. So I fully recommend it to anybody who wants to give it a while, I’m more than happy to take anybody out in a pond if that’s what they want.

Alexis: I was just thinking, actually, of all the people I’ve spoken to in the first series and this series no one has mentioned that as something that they used. But it’s definitely something that I think is becoming … I don’t know, I think it’s that bit about being back into, kind of, nature and what’s going on around you, season changes, you know, all of that stuff it’s very grounding, isn’t it?

Pete Musgrave: Exactly. And you’ve got an ambassador in the [unintelligible 00:32:19] that does that, anyway, haven’t you, and the [NCO? 00:32:23] does, sort of, the paddle boarding stuff. On nights we often go down at, sort of, four in the morning when the sun is coming up and there’s paddle boarders out on the Humber already. And I get it, because the sun is coming up, beautiful crisp morning and they’re out and just paddling along, peaceful. A bit soft not actually getting in the water but, you know, you can’t have everything can you.

Alexis: Well, you know, thinking about, they’re thinking about it.

Pete Musgrave: Yes. Get yourselves in. Yes, but I get it, I do get that, I get it.

Alexis: Yes, I mean, it’s definitely growing and it is having your think. I was just thinking there, as well, that movement side of it, the transition from work to home and vice versa, you know, it’s that kind of stuff as well, isn’t it, and having something which you know you can just go and do as and when you want to, as well. Open water swimming, I know it’s dependent probably on absolutely how freezing it is or however hard core you are.

Pete Musgrave: Yes, I’m not hard core in terms of if it’s the depths of winter I won’t be going to Lock Lomond and swimming in that because it’s about three degrees. But I’ve been in when it’s nine or ten so I’m semi-fair weather, I guess, if you like. Actually, it’s so good for your physical and mental wellbeing, you know, certainly challenges that I’ve had in my life that has been a real escape from that and being able to do that I’ve found it a real positive. And I feel fortunate that I can swim because I love doing it.

Alexis: Yes, absolutely. OK. Well, it’s been fantastic to talk to you and to be able to grab a bit of your time in your busy schedule. So thank you for coming to talk to me.

Pete Musgrave: No problem at all.

Alexis: And, as you said, if anyone is in the Humberside area and they’re interested in knowing a bit more about any of that you’d be happy to speak to them, is that OK?

Pete Musgrave: Oh, more than, yes, absolutely, more than happy.

Alexis: Thank you for listening to the Keeping the Peace podcast, it’s available wherever you listen to podcasts and if you subscribe you will be notified of the next episode as soon as it's available. We’d love to hear your feedback and ideas for future podcasts, so please do comment or get in touch on our social media platforms for either Fortis Therapy and Training or Oscar Kilo.