Cancer, work and you: Returning to work

I've got five really important thank yous to do before we get going, and the first one is to you all.

Thank you for taking the time in your busy, busy days. Thank you for making a difference for trying to make that world a better place. So thank you very, very much. This is the biggest group of the policing family for cancer. That's ever got together. We're up to 72 on here now, so I'm really, really pleased with that so thank you very, very much for coming and wanting to make a difference. I really appreciate that and thank you to Steve my colleague online.

Steve has recently had as well, pointed out Steve's testicular cancer. And he'll talk about many things. But a lot of it is around the myth, busting around the terminology in that and I put prostate cancer. So a perfect lead into Steve's talk so. Thank you very much. Steve from South Wales place and to Vicky here.

Vicky Male who you see on there. She's going to chat from a police staff perspective about her breast cancer, so I really appreciate both of them who I didn't know 18 months ago but I would class now as friends I haven't even met Steve but I feel I could tell him most things so that's the power of the cancer journey, I think.

So, thank you Steve, and thank you, Vicky and it would be remiss of me not to talk about Jo and the OK team. Without that I'm sure most of you may not know about this so far, so thank you very much to the OK team. They're good on social media it's not one of my strength areas so thank you very much for that. And also to Jayne Crouch here and Cheshire Constabulary. So I do a lot of this through the wellbeing network. So thank you very much, Jayne, I really appreciate it.

Just a bit of housekeeping have your cameras on or off. Jo was saying it doesn't make a difference to the connectivity, whichever you feel most comfortable with as well probably won't go on for the full two hours, but I want to give us all that two hours in case there are any questions and answers at the end or anything, you wanted to speak to me to you. Afterwards, we've got the two hours. I imagine me more like an hour and a half, but I'd rather have too much time than not enough.

So the key thing is the purpose of today is simply to help others and put back and to share experiences and to signpost others as well. And if you know if any of us can walk away from this session and help somebody else, for me that's success. I want to put back. I had a good experience with work and I'll go into more of that afterwards, but I just wanted to make sure as much as possible that as many people were helped as we possibly could. So those so as I say before if one person is helped after this, then it's been a good a good morning's work and it's important for me that we talk about males, females, staff and officers we're all part of the policing family, but cancer doesn't discriminate.

And it's including of us all so that's why it's important that Steve's here and Vicky's here as well. It's not just about officers. It's not about just about breast cancer or females. It's about males and us all looking after us all in the policing family. So we had one some of you might be online. Six months ago and there are some bits I've kept in because
that's my story and I know some bits are the same as Steve and Vicky. But that's good. We've got some new members online.

Some people we spoke to yesterday I had some calls yesterday. It reminded me we've all got a different journey. Some people aren't lucky enough to go back to work. And I thank you for those calls yesterday and we all have a very different journey, which leads me on to my fifth point is that these are my views today. I have a full time job and I'm
seconded chief inspector from Cheshire on the uplift so that's a full on job so this is over and above and as I was saying and I'm not on my own that I was doing this late last night and early this morning because it matters because I really, really want to do it.

But I'm not an expert a lot of them are my views, but I really, really welcome feedback if there's something that I've said that it, it could be improved. We're here to make it a better place for us all, so but just bear that in mind, please and also there may be some triggers today. It could be something, some photographs that I show or share an
experience there might be a bit of a trigger for you, if you've had an experience with cancer or somebody that you've loved so please take that time switch your camera on or off take a moment and we'll put our emails in the chat bar afterwards and if you need to contact us, then really, really please do.

This two hours is for you. If you need to go do some other work make a coffee and make your tea switch off get yourself. Together these two hours are for you and how you
can then take it back into the workplace or just for yourself.

And I just wanted to add my point seven. I just tried to keep me on track, at least for the beginning. Is that I'm not trying to replace, we aren't trying to replace any of the good work that HR does and there may be some healthcare and so some HR professionals online. There are some good policies. We join the police to be treated well, not to be millionaires. So there's some good stuff, so it's building on and enhancing what's already there. And also you know as I said it's the biggest get together of people associated with, affected by cancer so far and I want to extend the network.

I want to share these experiences and the good practice and we're in the very, very early stages of creating a national cancer support network. It's very much in its infancy but Steve and I only chatted earlier in the week about a voluntary database and I was thinking about an annual meet-up, a single point of contact in each force, and then maybe each force sharing a different theme so it wasn't too onerous. So bearing in mind, lots of people do it as well as their job and that's something I'm thinking of. So this is very much in its infancy but that to me would be real success. Where we had that real network. I wish I had something like that when I went through it.

So the last thing to mention of my intro is the Slido my colleague here, Jayne is going to put it in the sidebar. It'd be really good to hear about you, your journey. What
you think would be useful for the future, how you found it today I think that will inform us going into the future. So if you get chance to log on there I think there's just five questions I thought of and you can give some feedback that way. That would be much, much appreciated.

So, I'm going to start by sharing my screen. And going through a few points of my own experiences, then Steve will talk about his testicular cancer, got it right, Steve and then Vicky will chat about her experience too, and then we'll go back over the toolkit we're forming and then we've got chances for questions at the end. But if there's
anything urgent just put your hand up and then either Jayne or Jo will be able to step in.

So without further ado, let me share and start off. Can you see that? OK, so as I said before the purpose of today, so one in two of us will be affected by cancer. So the purpose of today is to share my journey, share the journey of others, create some awareness, enhance the capability of the workforce and highlight some best practice and and I won't apologise for repeating this but quite simply if you walk away from here with more knowledge awareness, and tools to create best practice for the area or force you represent and to help others, then that's success for me.

So why, why, why, why, am I doing it today I often ask myself that but because at the time I was well supported but I've realised in the last five years that not all had a good
experience and there was unintended consequences. There's some police staff were told they were going on to half pay via a voicemail. And Vicky will talk about that a bit later on, and some were insisted that they had to come into work to deliver a sick note because that is a policy, but it did cause them a lot of upset and a lot of heartache.

They're just anecdotal things and I know an inspector was very uncomfortable with the word breast, boob and just the terminology that I heard an experience of as well. And I know somebody else talked about when they were having a home visit and the sergeant at the time, I assumed didn't have the time and took a phone call in the middle of her sharing her experience and then even ten years later that's the thing she meant mentioned the most about work that in the middle of her very revealing the whole ill health that they took her call but Steve and Vicky will share some further experiences.

So I never intended to share this or create a network, but it was only because I realised that not all people had the good experience I did, and I want to make their worlds return to work if their health permits to be as seamless as absolutely possible.

So can you see me? Yeah. Can you can see that Jayne? Yeah. So this is where my story started. Can you see that on the screen, Jayne? Yeah. So this is where I can't see myself on the screen there so this bits a bit disconcerting. This is where my story started was with a peppercorn. I found a lump in my right breast. The size of a small peppercorn and then had that checked out. And really from then on my life was turned upside down.

There's a few photographs to come and I remember the day I told my husband, there and that's us when we went on holiday a few days later. And remember, you know the weather. I remember the feeling of the gravel and the sound. It was really, really just something so small my life was turned upside down.

Before I move on to the next side. I really want to reiterate the importance of checking every lump and bump out because it was Grade 3, triple-negative and it was just so there are only four grades so if that hadn't been found out. I definitely wouldn't be here today, so if there's another one thing you carry away, is to get anything checked. I was even chatting to somebody last week and said ohhh. I'd never get anything checked, but I'm so grateful I did, and I encourage you to every time you change just check yourself males and females everywhere.

So the first eight months after my discovery, I had three operations, 68 medical appointments, 80 injections, six sessions of chemotherapy, double mastectomy, and a reconstruction and that's me with the Cold Cap on which was some of you may have heard of or seen family or friends with it and that's when you had something it goes to minus nine on your head for two and a half hours and it did feel like about ten ice creams and knives on your head and that was to keep a little bit of my hair as I was going through the journey.

And the key thing for me at the time was the impact on my children and others and I didn't want them to grow up with the feeling that they were a part of my help. I wanted them to be something that they were part of the family part of my recovery. So I did tell them that Mummy's not got cancer anymore, that lumps been removed and now Hannah's nearly 18, Emily 16 and they do talk about it as a positive experience and that was my key at the time that I didn't want them to be overly affected by the cancer.

So for me and as I said before it's my personal journey that for me before everything else getting ready was a secret of success and some of you might resonate with this was that the couple of weeks I had between the diagnosis and then starting the treatment was what I struggled with most and but so I used that time to get ready. But before everything else getting ready is the secret to success and that was for me and I used that time.

Although I was in the middle of chemotherapy here and had no hair at all, hats were my best friends so I went to get a lot of hats, I got some wigs and ended up with three wigs. And we were given some money and Steve might mention this later the things you can get from the federation. I used that so I felt more normal and the hats where my best friend. I had a ponytail on to this and had some hair at the side and in the daytime it made me feel more normal like I could get through the day and at least then recover in the afternoon.

And I talk about preparation, so some hair had started to grow back but I was thankful for my tattooed eyebrows and some of you going through it, or maybe have been, may know that you can't have your eyebrows tattooed once you start chemotherapy. And I found out during that two weeks I had a small window to get them done and it did make me it's a personal journey that did make me feel better. Just having that little bit of definition.

So for me, it was having the right people around you keep having fun and keeping some normality. The people are vital and the right ones, and I guess that's probably why I feel excited and enthused that we can get some cancer network together and to share in it. And here with you all today is because the people are vital, the right ones. I guess that's why I'm a police officer because I want to interact with people. I want to make a difference. I want to make things better and that's what made a difference for me during my journey.

So, I do love this about I crafted each day so there was something to look forward to and I believe if you don't design your own life plan chances are you'll fall into somebody else's plan, and even those that are well intended they don't have much planned for you. So I tried to plan something small every single day. And I raised £2,500 for cancer support for my in my daughter's school and I know that's not everybody's way of doing it and it's such a personal journey.

But I wanted to put it out there in the community and it was on the front of the local press. And I wanted to share what I was doing to give well inspiration sounds strong. But I wanted others to see, there were ways of doing it and it helped keep me busy and somebody said to my youngest "Is your mum wearing a wig?" and I said right that's everybody wearing a wig and it felt good to raise money to help others and it felt good to have it out there and it felt good to be busy, exhausting but it did feel like to celebrate what we have, to celebrate wearing a wig.

So I did enjoy my Wig Wednesday and I'm not saying though that there wasn't dark places. There were times during the treatment when we had the news and there were dark places, but I'll go back to the people. It was the people and those that were around me that really, really helped me through, but it's I think it's important to have that balance.

So, work. Those of you know me will know this, though, especially those I know who are online from GMP as well. You know, I joined the police at 22 and I've always
done that I decided when I was seven so if you probably cut me in half, it would have police written through so work's part of me and coming back to work was a big, big thing for me and it was part of me and that's why we're talking today, a bit more about work.

But you know what works for you and the environment, you're going back to it. If you're lucky enough to go back and for me, it was that a we established communication lines.
So. I know some of you have heard this, but some of you may know him. It was Kev Bennett that was here and he turned up at my doorstep with some garage flowers and just said "I'm not sure what I'm doing here, but I'll do whatever I can to help you."

And then we established from that communication a weekly text and a phone call because I hadn't seen him for years and I knew he was a very busy person and I knew that I was a list. I was on his list of things to do. So, we text had a weekly text or a weekly phone call. Happened to be on a Friday about what I needed him to do what he
needed me to do. But the tip there is to find out what works for you, or your colleague or the staff, you could be supervising others to see which method of communication works for you and we'll go back.

We'll go on to this, a little bit more afterwards with Steve ways to interact and we don't want work to be too much contact or too little contact and I know Steve will talk about that later on. It's just that balance isn't it and it will change bearing in mind what level whether they're during chemotherapy, whether it's radiotherapy, whether the suffering very very ill health so that will depend really. But we will go on to that a little bit later.

So that was my work week and that was my first day back at work, but basically for me that it was a progressive return to work and that worked for me and it worked for the organisation and for Cheshire. Now I feel very loyal to Cheshire and the policing family because they were there for me and in that hour of need and it wasn't perfect and
everybody didn't get it right all of the time, including me, but they were there for me in my hour of need, and that was important to me. But I'm going over this at the end.

But Steve predominantly and the National Occupational Health and myself will put together a toolkit. And I will just briefly skim through these and we'll cover it again after Vicky's talks just to round it off, but the key thing's for me here are: Are you the right person? Is there a previous history? That's key to think about the consider the second role that the consider the role of the second line manager.

What if you're off? Negotiate the protocols. Who's going to do what? Staff can move around a lot, so the single point of contact is essential. Speak and do your homework. If you're a line manager research relevant topics prior to the visit as I said, before and I was just saying in a pre meet that there are Macmillan Centres that are far far better than when I went through this. An interaction, according to their need and organisational protocol as in face to face visit. I mentioned before phone messages being instrumental in their key issues at work, the pay, the hours of work. It's really for me, it's about letting the cancer patient concentrate on getting better.

And also something that Steve mentioned actually about consider asking the patient if they want a friend or a family at home and having a home visit and it's something I didn't consider but I think that's a really good tip and like I mentioned before offer a progressive return to work and examples. I've shown that I've experienced are not the case
and I hope that's improving but I know that's not always been the case.

And the key thing that Steve mentioned I know he'll go into but about scheduling your appointments and visits with them and keep to them, whatever your role in the organisation.

So let me just stop sharing that.

But it was disconcerting because they couldn't see myself, but I can see you all now.

And so we'll go back to the return to work and some toolkits that we're putting together after Vicky's spoken today.

But I just wanted to share with you, a little bit of my journey and to share a bit of you about bit of you bit of me as to why we're here doing it and I think we'll have we'll have any questions we've got at the end cause there's lots of us online today, which is brilliant. But I think it just affects a little bit about when we ask questions. But we've got lots of opportunities to do that either through e-mail, or at the end.

So Steve should we hand over to yourself?

Thank you. You built me up there Catherine lot of mentions. I didn't realise I'd had such an impact. But then yeah. I'm here today to talk about my cancer and how I'm trying to use my experiences and to a degree my seniority in South Wales Police to influence and try and make us a little bit better because I think we all want to be better in this space in reaching out and supporting our colleagues and friends and people who are caring for loved ones who are going through this and say you know from my experiences it wasn't all plain sailing it but it was on reflection I think I had a relatively good experience and so I'm here to share that today and hopefully this will work now when I try and share my screen.

Bear with me.

Right can you, can you see that? Because I now have lost you all, so Catherine can you can see? Yeah, yeah OK so yeah, my cancer ohhh bear with me. I've got to go through the PowerPoint.

Right. So what I'm here to talk about today, obviously is the outline of my journey in the presentation, I will talk about the Testicular Taboo and my symptoms and me putting myself off going to the GP, coming up with any other reason rather than go and see the GP. The diagnosis and treatment, complications that I experienced. Thank heavens my wife and thank God she's not on the call here cause I won't be able to speak in front of her about this either, the fact that life goes on I think we all experienced this, the best and the worst of the NHS. I certainly did experience that and during the period of COVID as well. You can imagine how that impacted on my journey and the impact on others around you, the support from our job and I think it's really important that we reflect on that.

You know, particularly in these difficult times and austere times. We still are very well protected in our organisation and then my recovery and surveillance regime, which led to
identification of secondary cancer, where I'm at now, where the force is at and you know what we're trying to do in the toolkit.

So I was diagnosed in January 2020, but actually knew something was wrong with me and my nether regions from about August and I recall we were on holidays in Turkey and I remember being in the shower and I was checking myself and I remember shouting out to my wife and said "Oh Beth come and have a look at this" type of thing and she said "don't be so ridiculous" she thought I was trying to get a little bit fresh I suppose in the hotel room, she said, "Well if you're that worried go to the doctor." Well typically, I didn't go to the doctor I kept on putting it off.

Couple of months prior to this probably about 10-12 months prior to that we'd been away as a family and playing tennis with my 14-year-old boy at the time and full-on Andy Murray'd a serve from about three foot away and hit me directly in the testicles and I was dropped and I was convinced and I convinced myself that it was down to that,
so I went to the doctors ultimately.

Following a Superintendents' Association health check that was paid for by the organisation and they told me I had high blood pressure. I hadn't got high blood pressure well. I'd got white coat fever, so I went to the doctors about my high blood pressure and whilst I was there, I sort of said to the doctor "while I'm here can you please check out my testicles as well" and you know the doctor you know sat me down and dropped my trousers, had had a little feel around there and my symptoms, I had no lumps whatsoever I just had an aching pain, a numb pain in my left testicle, which felt harder more firm than my right testicle and was and was slightly swollen, but nothing that I thought was out of the ordinary.

But that you know, obviously was enough to worry about and from that point, there and you know that prognosis and treatment got expedited because that was more of a the burning bridge really, for me and I was rapidly rushed through local checks so there's just a just countering off that I mean, the GP is a family GP for 20 odd years and he was wonderful tried to reassure me and it was really up until the point of me having the diagnosis that he also allowed me to believe that there was hope that this was going to be a trauma injury and there wasn't going to be cancer cause I think he knows that I'm the type of person that I feel fit and healthy every day of my life until you tell me I'm not fit and healthy and then I'll panic. So that's exactly what happened with me and you know, we, we went through a journey then of having to try and reassure myself that I didn't have high blood pressure.

So I was waiting for appointments with the Cardiology and had to have a 24-hour machine fitted to me to take my blood pressure and at the same time, I was going through and I had confirmation by this time that I did actually have testicular cancer. And that involved me going to have an ultrasound on my testicle and I was there with
every expectant mother and people with sort of torn hamstrings etc and a paper-thin curtain. When this guy is just basically time you'll there's something really nasty in there I don't like the look of it and that's basically how they told me I had cancer. So I had to then go about trying to pursue appointments with the Urology Consultants and at the same time get the blood pressure resolved because I was being advised they wouldn't operate if I had high blood pressure etc.

I'm trying to get health experts to talk to one another and treat you as a person rather than anything else was rather the injury or the illness that you're facing was
nigh on impossible. But I found that once I knew what I was facing, you know it was definitely less scary you know, and I deliberately avoided Dr Google because as I told you before you know the type of person I am, if I read up on that and then you know, I'd be convinced that the most pessimistic outcome would be there for me.

You know, and so I deliberately avoided that and just tried to remain positive, but you know when you looked at the facts around Testicular Cancer about 2,000
men get it a year. It's most common between men aged 18 to 40, 98% survival rate, you know all of these things started to sort of improve my outlook on my opportunities in life really, most patients didn't require secondary treatment.

Many don't even have the Adjunctive Therapy. You know which belt and braces therapy of chemotherapy and I was, I was hopeful for that as well. But what it did mean is you know in order to remove the testicle they go through the abdomen and through an operation called Radical inguinal orchiectomy and so I had about a four-inch scar on my lower abdomen and that's where you know they go in and remove all the tubes and the testicle at that point and stitch you back up and they also give you an option about having a replacement.

So I didn't really have a conversation with the doctors about having a replacement so but nonetheless, they pop one in there. And I never really had an informed discussion about the risks of secondary infections and but yeah, as I put at the bottom there, lucky old me... That's exactly what happened to me, so I was probably about 2-3 days having been released from day surgery with the orchiectomy and when I really noticed that the swelling that I was experiencing and I was warned to experience to expect
swelling but it became excessive and you know if anybody's familiar with the old cartoons, Viz just think Buster Gonad.

It was really, really, really uncomfortable and you know at the time it was a challenge to try and get to see the doctor because of COVID restrictions were just being implemented but I managed to get into the doctor and you know it's pretty special when you know a doctor who was approaching his retirement age and says "What's the matter, Steve? You look uncomfortable." I said I've got a bit of swelling and you know it's something when the doctor sits back and goes "Oof yes" you know.

So I think he realised at that point that I was in a great deal of pain and I was having night sweats I was putting that down to cancer. And you know, and I was in a lot of discomfort but nonetheless, they tried to treat that with intravenous drugs and to try and save me from having a further operation, but about a week later I had a further complication in the pressure and the swelling built up to such a stage and it burst the stitches on my abdomen and I was rushed back into hospital and had the
secondary operation where they had to remove the prosthetic testicle, and the infection layer because my body was having a reaction and I had an infected hematoma so they removed the testicle by operating and opening my scrotum and then I obviously had two holes the plug. I was discharged as the world got locked down and then it opened up my home to a host of different district nurses only one of which was a male.

To come into my house and then pack my wound on my stomach and then my wound on my scrotum and with a gauze and to try and heal from the inside out. So yeah, and I said, I was a put it there, you know if I thought it was embarrassing getting a diagnosis from just testicular cancer and you know nothing can prepare you for the humiliation and embarrassment of having all these pretty young nurses coming into your home and having to pack your wounds really, but by the end of about.

I think it was about 10/12 week of the recovery phase during this period when I wasn't allowed to have my chemotherapy until my wounds were healed and yeah by the time that they'd finished coming in, it was. I'd have Homes Under the Hammer on in the background. My kids would be there, eating their cornflakes next to me. And the nurses would be there doing their deeds really, and it helped me put things into context. Every time I'd be looking around, saying this is their day job and this is normal, they've seen it all before and this is helping you get better and you know, I think that was really important for me to keep that level of perspective.

But yeah, during this period and it was a strange old period. You know the other things keep you busy you know, my kids like very much felt that they wanted to support me in my journey. I didn't lose my hair with the type of chemotherapy that I had but my boys felt compelled to try and raise some money and they raised £700 for doing this. One obviously goes for the Travis Bickle look there, trying to outdo the other one.

My back garden looks a bit of a mess, but you know they were also busy trying to build a bar to keep us entertained during COVID and we spent many an afternoon out there together, but I didn't realise the impact this was having on my family and particularly my children and there was a time you know when I was trying to gear myself back up to coming into work and getting ready after my chemotherapy where the kids and my wife sort of had a little bit of an intervention and they spoke to me and gave me some home truths and it was it was quite eye-opening and life-changing really.

I'm a police officer like Catherine, you know your blue through the middle. I come from a policing family. My father was a chief superintendent. I was a chief superintendent and you know being a police officer, being a ranking police officer as well gave me so much about me, but I realised that when we had these homes truths that my boys were sort of telling me that Dad you're not there. You know when you are there, you're not there, you're on the phone you're taking calls. You're watching my football with other parents and you were off in the corner and speaking to the politicians, the MP, the chief executive, etc.

Because at the time I was the BCU Commander of Cardiff, obviously the capital city of Wales a really, really big job for the chief super and something that gave me a lot of job satisfaction, but I realised that yeah I wasn't investing as much time in my family. So that was a bit of a watershed moment for me really and helped me form my opinions about my return to work I found it difficult to talk, but really to my family around this because you know.

That's where I get emotional when we talk about things like that, but it did give me perspective on life and I think that was really, really important, and as I said there's Beth. She was my rock and not everybody's got a rock as well, and you know, I feel what my reflection is, what a lonely journey this can be for others, and you know, there's a big
opportunity for us as employers to help people face what they need to be facing and as I say, I still can't read that as I say look Catherine said they'll be triggers for some people. I can't read that but that was my first Father's Day card off the boys and when I was going through cancer.

So I'll leave that up there just for a short moment but you know they became emotional typical Welsh Valleys males you know all rugby and beer type of thing and we don't talk about our emotions. But they found an opportunity to write that in the card and that made me really sort of say come on, you can pull yourself together about this, Stephen and help me get through it, but during to my illness, you know, and I think I realise that through my seniority in this organisation I've got an understanding of what policing says, what our terms and conditions say, and how they should be applied to people and I but, I don't think everybody. I certainly know that isn't the case for everybody on this call and certainly isn't the case of people have reached out to me since I've come back to say, yeah and I didn't have a good experience. But our terms and conditions are good.

You know during this period, I knew countless friends and family at home were getting laid off during COVID or furloughed etc. But I knew I had a real great job to come back to. But, the chief constable at the time was Matt Jukes and he reached out to me with a text message to say you know, whatever you need is there for you and I know what he meant by that and I know that the organisation knew that I'd be back as soon as I possibly could, but you know, I think the message for me is, don't assume we all know, the same terms and conditions or we've got the same confidence to have it applied to us and you know I put there that in a bullet point on me and the chief I mean, the
existing chief Jeremy Vaughan and it was a case that he would contact me every now and again.

But every time that I text Jeremy Vaughan, saying no this has happened. I'm back in hospital. I need more treatment. I've got the chemo next week, he would pick the phone up immediately. You know, and would ring me and it was things like that, that just made me feel more valued and you know, there were little things that we couldn't have visitors so the odd text from colleagues, superintendents across the force, reaching out you know trying to pick up my shift for on duty SFC etc and it was small gestures like that which were remarkable but we you know, we weren't expecting gifts.

But we had gifts. We had a welfare pack from my colleagues in Cardiff SMT. They landed totally out of the blue and gave my wife and I that lift that we needed, and the girls in her office. She also works for South Wales Police. They clubbed together and sent us to a spa break in The Celtic Manor. You know, and that's given from [unintelligible] girls and absolutely blew us away there because I think you know, we all realised there is support out there.

The workforce do care about you, but I think some people find it difficult to express that so you know, my advice to people, has been you know to reach out and send a text. If I wasn't up to it and didn't feel like responding, I wouldn't. But I think that would be my advice to anybody and I've probably been one of those police officers or colleagues in the past that hasn't wanted to bother people. But it meant a lot to me when people reached out to me, so and then you know as things developed. You know has talked about the orchidectomy that hematoma that healing the chemo. I came back to work as soon as you know, I was ready, which was basically the week after I had chemo
and I only had the one dose of chemo. So I felt in a good position to be able to come back to work.

So I started working remotely. I'd had to do my own COVID assessment. You know, I didn't expect the ACC to do that. I did my own return to work interview. The reality of it is, you know, we know we monitor these things and for the rest of the organisation that didn't phase me. I didn't feel as if the organisation didn't care about me, but me doing it myself, I think somebody probably should have sat me down and said, are you fit enough or good. You know in a right space to do your SFC / Public Order.

And because I picked them up straight away. I felt that you know, I'd been off for two and a half, three months anyway. And I felt that I'd I felt guilty that other people had had to carry my level of responsibility for me, so in the first show I was back, I still did 42 gold firearms duties but I you know, I know that I actually have put on two stone during COVID largely due to that home bar really, and sitting at the back with my boys, but I didn't feel fit enough to do the fitness test and you know, I still haven't done it, but there's a reason why during that period I'd been back.

Probably a month and a half when I received the letter from finance advising me that I was going to be considered for discussion with the director of HR or the director of people and I was being considered for being dropped down to half pay, which I was absolutely livid with, in one receiving that letter as I'd been back to work in six weeks in a recuperative capacity. You know doing remote meetings etc. But I felt really offended by receiving that and I thought well if I'm having that how will other members of our workforce feel when that letter arrives, so that that really did annoy me. I just ripped it up because I didn't want to see who sent actually sent me that letter because I probably would have never forgotten their name and I just ripped it up there and then but yeah, we're we're currently at the moment.

You know the following year and I'm in this period of five years of surveillance because you've obviously been still a risk population category and one of my CT scans, the year after I had the testicular cancer identified that there have been some metastasis and that they had a para-aortic nodule. So I didn't even know what one of those was
thought lucky old me, but it's basically a small nodule off the aorta, which feeds down towards the kidneys where they found a two-centimeter to four-centimeter growth, which they assumed had to be cancer.

So it was very much very plain sailing, but Steve you gotta have chemotherapy to to kill the cancer in case it is still growing and spreading and I had to have intensive radiotherapy, so again I probably had a five-week window off work, again my reflection, there, you know, we don't have to worry. I knew that was no problem. There's always enough support around us to be able to step in whatever role or rank we're in and there was a great wrap-around from the organisation and the team, particularly in mid-Glamorgan on [unintelligible]. They all stepped up and stepped in and took everything off me immediately.

But what I'm at now. Yeah, I am anxious about my health. You know, I've been really anxious during COVID. I really wasn't a fun guy to be around during COVID so you know, I was absolutely anal about hand washing and who came into my home. So I can agree I have anxiety. I find myself more tired than I was previously and that's probably
down to my reduced testosterone level which then feeds into why I'm overweight. But I'm still trying. My wife bought me a wonderful present. What do you buy an overweight police officer who is trying to get back fit and has got a testicle injury and you buy him a [unintelligible] bike with a really pointy saddle and so I do laugh at that.

But it is quite painful, but I'm on it every night and now I've been identified that I've got two hernias in and around the abdomen wound that I've got which then causes me problems in relation to the amount I train and it causes me difficulty in walking and running. Hence me not being able to do or not you know at this moment I'm not
doing the fitness test, but that's what I'm currently at but as I said when I came back to the organisation and reflected on my sort of journey I wanted to make sure that people felt as involved and as engaged and as supportive as I was. You know, I think there could have been things that were done differently, and better and I'm hoping that you know by me using my influence to try and improve things that we can get things better and we can be the supervisors and the organisation that we want to be.

I've done a number of these talks. Now I'm probably guessing quite comfortable about talking about this. Our colleagues are some on the call here today. They did a podcast with myself. And I was invited to do that with and one of their friends was a GP so we talked about the whole sort of diagnosis. The embarrassment and the journey off the back of that have been invited to do a couple of these talks with the cancer network and I think this is very much as in its infancy and you know, I think it's going to rely on us trying to build it from people with lived experiences who want to do better and I just sort of say that this is about us joining the dots between us all survivors, patients carers, occupational health, HR and also the chair of the benevolent fund, which is a charity in South Wales.

I think most forces have a benevolent fund. But you know, I reflected on thinking well how could we support people better than that and I know Catherine talked about her wig experiences. I think the ones you get on the NHS are very much quite uncomfortable. They probably are the budget range and I think you know, my reflection was, I was lucky. I didn't have to do that, but I could imagine you know if I lost my hair.

I know I'd look like Shrek, not Shrek, umm Sloth from the Goonies and when you know, but I so I can deal with my cancer through humour, but I know that others couldn't and you know that some fundamental things that will changing the way people look how we could support them and try and fund the best wigs that are available to make people feel better about facing what they need to face is really important, and I think you know, I'm trying to get us to implement the toolkit locally.

I've even you know joined up for Macmillan, cancer support and you know I'm cross-referencing this to our policies and procedures and to be honest with you the reality is, you know with the level of HR interventions we have in work we're in a good place, policing's in a good place and so, but it's still about picking up tricks and tips and ideas. I think there are other people on the call from South Wales, who organised Maggie's Centre running webinars and the cancer webinars for supervisors 25 people in South Wales have signed up to that over the next month.

And they're offering to do things internally in South Wales and then you know, I think there's another reflection that I've had, today there are more people off with cancer in South Wales, 11 people off with cancer. But seven ladies off on maternity and I think it just puts that into that picture and context that we have the same regularity or frequency of staff and colleagues off with this illness, then we have with them with maternity and both of them are absolutely life-changing experiences. So hopefully that's what I'm trying to do in trying to take this forward, not only in South Wales. But I think we've got an opportunity to make something meaningful across policing in the UK.

So that's it for me, I will now try and stop sharing if I can.

Take me a while.

There. I feel as if I'm back in the room. It feels very cathartic it's like being It does, yeah. I suppose it's like being behind the you know the confession curtain and now I'm back in the room so. [Laughs]

Thank you so much Steve. It is a total joy to listen to that. It's not the first time, but it feels like every time I discover and learn something new. So, thank you very much. Really appreciate it and the key thing there is the cross-referencing the good support with Macmillan and I do some work for Breast Cancer Now as well as cross-referencing which is a great phrase with the things that go on in force isn't it like you say you've got your pack there so thank you very, very much welcome back into the room.

Vicky, how are you and are you ready?

[Laughs] Hello Hi, Gosh I have also heard obviously your story being a colleague at Cheshire and Steve's story before, but it just it got me again because it's so it's just so
similar there were so many similarities to the whole experience as an individual and again it's reminded me that cancer doesn't discriminate you know senior police officers,
HR assistants you know we can all be affected by this, this journey.

Shall I start off by talking a little bit about my experience? Yeah, I think are you happy for me to go now OK?

Yeah, you go. Alright, thank you. So my name's Vicky Male and I've worked for Cheshire for six years and I'm currently an HR assistant. So not really in charge of anything to be honest. But I enjoy my job and back in January or December 2020, in the middle of the pandemic and a few months after losing my Dad I found a lump. And I put it down to
being at home working from home, not necessarily wearing a bra every day and my body was in perimenopause.

So it felt like it could have been explained by a number of factors. We were moving house. We were buying a fixer upper. We were downsizing.

The children were leaving home and going off to university it felt like the right time, we'd made a plan.

And. Turns out that the house needed quite a lot more work and it was at that point I really couldn't put it off any longer the feeling that I had that I needed to check this lump out so I went and got it checked out and from that point onwards things moved extremely quickly because my cancer was aggressive and it wasn't waiting for anybody to have any more checks on a house to move into.

Long story short, we had to pull out of that that deal and that guilt lives with me today because you know, we were on the cusp of moving, we'd got a plan. The family buying our house, had got a plan. Just another reminder of how cancer doesn't just affect you or your family. It's that it can affect every facet of your life. The cancer, the cancer was in my left breast and it was a ductal cancer and it presented itself as quite a large lump, which actually wasn't around lump like Catherine felt it wasn't an ache. It was it felt like a muscle and it changed, it changed very quickly.

I started chemotherapy within a few weeks delayed somewhat by COVID and because my eldest son managed to catch COVID despite never leaving the house part apart from jogging. So that had to be put back for another two weeks and then those in those short weeks once I told work what was happening to me my understanding of what was happening to me and it was extremely apparent to me that every single part of this journey was going to have to be me facing this on my own and my husband couldn't come with me to any of those appointments. I was told alone by a Macmillan nurse and a doctor who I'd heard in the room next door to me, laughing before they came into
my room to give me the news. They were just doing their job but for me that was the most serious thing I'd ever been told it was the most devastating thing I'd ever been told.

But right away, I understood that they were just doing their job and thank goodness they just do their job because actually, it's incredibly important that that the people who know what they're doing do their job and they do it well and like Steve I had varying degrees of treatment and support there were some nurses who didn't do things
well. There were some doctors who didn't do things well. But overall, I feel extremely fortunate. I live in an area where we have access to a hospital like the Christie like Leighton, who understand what it is to go through a cancer diagnosis, cancer treatment, reconstruction surgery, and radiotherapy.

Once I'd told, and before I started chemo, I contacted work and was assured that nothing. I didn't need to worry about anything. I just needed to concentrate on myself and my family and getting myself ready for the next stage in the treatment. I didn't really know what to expect. I was given lots of information because it was in lockdown a little bit
like Steve and there, there were no face-to-face facilities for things like wigs and so I wasn't issued with a wig. I could have been but I decided actually no. I was going to
shave my head before it came out and before I lost my hair and I was going to be bald and beautiful and you know anybody dare look at me any differently and woe betide them. I bought lots of big earrings. I bought lots of glittery hair bands and I felt beautiful when I was bald because yeah, I was going through something that was incredibly difficult.

But I was so well supported by my family and friends that I and that the hospitals that I couldn't possibly have felt any different, it was awful, but it was, it was wonderful at the same time. Talking a little bit about the appointments I mean, I know that Catherine when you did your presentation you listed how many appointments and how many visits and blood tests and what have you and it really is overwhelming to go through the process and count back at, I didn't count back because there were too many, but one of the things I did do was kept a video diary and I just talked to myself on my phone and I had the courage to look back at those videos after I'd finished all my treatment and
to see how far I'd come was a massive boost because I didn't know that I'd coped with it does well as I'd cope with it, I was honest with myself.

In terms of work. It was always in the back of my mind that at any moment I could stop being paid. And I didn't know. And because it was in COVID and the bit of Cheshire that I was working for had been disbanded and I was hopefully going to be rehired in another part of the force. I found out gradually that I was going to have to apply for a
position. And I didn't really know how that would look because at the time I had no facial features. I had no hair. I'd had chemotherapy I then had reconstruction surgery like
Steve I had a hematoma which is no fun and I've seen the look on the doctor's face like my goodness that's quite a big hematoma. We need to get that sorted and so I've been there and I've done that and I've got the T-shirt and to then have to apply for a job in that week when you've just nearly died in surgery was quite a big deal for me.

But I did feel out my skills matrix and I did get a job in the new world at Cheshire and which you know, I'm eternally grateful for. Ideal. Probably not. I probably wouldn't have had it like that, and I dare say HR wouldn't have had it like that, either but it is what it is we're in a global pandemic and I had cancer. Listening to Steve and Catherine's journey reminded me that, it is very much a personal journey.

Trying to say this without crying it is it's very difficult to explain to somebody who hasn't already been through or hasn't been through something themselves exactly how it feels your body copes with what the medicine throws at it. With chemotherapy, they give you just enough to not kill you and then you know you recover and your body does recover and your body copes with it magnificently. Emotionally your mind it's a process and for me, returning to work 14 months after diagnosis was really tough. I had to come back to work. I didn't have the luxury of not being able to come back to work. Unfortunately, my transition back to work was made very smooth because of the line managers that I was working for.

They all three of them made sure that the moderated hours that I was afforded meant that I could log on or log off during the day as long as I did the hours that I was, I'd had agreed to do that day, I could do them at any time, which actually completely helped me to be able to cope with what I thought I couldn't cope with as in the number of hours, I could sit before I wasn't able to concentrate anymore.

Being able to have regular meetups and regular chats, I mean before I came back to work and all this was on a quite a flexible basis and but once I got back to work. Informal chats and regular and formal chats meant that I knew where I was and they knew where I was up to. Time off to attend holistic appointments. The support I got from Macmillans was incredible. Even now, I'm still getting weekly support from them. I'm back up to full-time hours, although I have now dropped a day because in actual fact working full-time is not something I feel able to do for the foreseeable future.

I really want to give back to anybody else who may have been recently going through cancer or who is supporting somebody else that's going through cancer and this sort of thing is incredibly important to me and I hope that if you've taken anything away today is just take away that it doesn't cancer doesn't discriminate and it could be any
one of us that finds ourselves in these positions and I'll stop waffling now Catherine.

And so thank you for listening and if anybody's got any questions I'm more than happy to answer them.

Vicky you weren't waffling one little bit. And that was really, really good. Thank you so, so much because I know there are times when it's emotional for you, but you did, exceptionally well I was just going to mention how you were browsing the intranet and how we met and I wondered whether cause that's a good bit of good practice that people on the line could do could put on their intranet do you want when you just talk a little bit about that about how we met and how other people could do the same.

So yeah you're absolutely right. I had completely forgotten to include that in what I was saying. Right at the beginning of my journey, when I was first diagnosed we were in COVID and the only place that I had any information was obviously the internet, but from a work perspective, I spotted your story on the intranet. The local intranet for Cheshire force and didn't know anybody who had breast cancer, nobody in my family had got breast cancer, it was completely out of came out of the blue, and seeing your story and you sharing pretty much what you've shared with us today was instrumental in me being able to go forward.

Knowing that there was somebody that understood what I was going to be because I didn't really know what I was facing and to be able to have that point of reference that point of contact. You. You know, I reached out to you. I sent you that e-mail saying, you don't know me from Adam. I've just read what you've put on the intranet. Somebody's
told me that I've got something similar. I'm starting chemo soon and I am petrified and you were brilliant, reached back straight back to me and you know, you've been my support. It's I can't put too fine a point on it where having cancer in lockdown times was completely different and it reminds me each time that I speak to people to you to you know listen to Steve again that I remember that it was so isolating.

So having your story there for anybody to see, for anybody to read, and anybody to pick up. Was instrumental in my ability to cope with what I was going through. Again body copes mind needs a bit more a bit more of a process to follow so it was very much a huge help to me to know that within the force family, there was somebody that I could reach out to who knew what I was going through because it's not in any of the handbooks, it's not, there are no policies to cope with the emotional turmoil of going through a cancer diagnosis, cancer treatment, whatever that looks like.

There just isn't. So personal stories and personal journeys and anything personal, information about how things are you know are looking or how you've coped and come out the other side that was absolutely it was, it was everything for me.

But thank you for that and and and thank you for. But repeating it and I know sometimes it touches us both a bit then so but the reason I ask you to say it is because this is being recorded, and if somebody can just listen to that and then maybe an e-mail to you, or an e-mail to Steve or to any of us can then help somebody else on this journey
and it was thank you to your feedback and we got chatting that I thought I wanted to do more. So and like I say without you know, I class you as a friend now and to Steve as well and it's just so empowering to hear that you've helped others and for you, then to go on and help other words, like a hive that goes out like a beehive that just goes down and we can all help each other.

So, thank you very much for sharing there, Vicky that was just the job. Thank you so much and I'm sure we all got a lot from that. Thank you very, very much. So, I'm just going to now relatively on track as well, which is unusual for us. So I'm going to share my screen and just go over the toolkit at the end. And then if Steve you can come in.

Let's go into that cause I disappear as you say the curtain goes and then I feel disconcerted just can't see myself, but we'll go over that toolkit at the end. As well.

And then Steve if I just summarise it and then if you wouldn't mind just adding on anything because a lot of it is a lot of this is your work and also with Occupational Health. The National Occupational Health as well. So to take it. You've heard an introduction some bits of my story, Steve's story and some bits of Vicky's story. So we're looking back how we can put a bit more in personal stories are the big thing, but also just a bit of a toolkit going forward linking it back into work when I know somebody quite rightly. A contact yesterday, he said it's different I couldn't come back to work or work to different journey. But if you are lucky enough to recover like I was and Steve and to Vicky and we have the opportunity to go back to work. The interaction with work is the key thing, again Are you the right person?

Consider the role of line manager as staff move around speak to and do some homework/ research. That's easier now, just Googling Macmillan. I do some volunteer work for Breast Cancer Now and they're really easy to access someone to 10s of things that they advise and interact, according to their need and/or organisational
protocol. I know Steve touched on that and I did as well. You know for me, it's about letting the cancer patient concentrate on getting better. And I think it was useful to hear from Steve and from Vicky how when they were able to focus on getting better and also consider asking the patient if they want a friend or family at home and I know I raised this earlier, but that's the thing that Steve mentioned I think is really useful and offer a progressive return to work.

You know, I have heard anecdotally and it was more a traditional inspector that said right, I'll see you tomorrow at 8 hours, I am pleased that more recently, it's been progressive as Vicky's but also a progressive return to work as Vicky highlighted the body sometimes is right, but the head takes some catching up and also schedule your appointments and visits and keep them. However, busy you are on the organisation make sure you're reliable as you can be. Steve, is there anything else that you'd want to add to that first page?

I just think that you're capturing on all of our experiences here and with everybody on the call. This is personal. You know our policies and procedures as I said before I think the phrase I've used they're indiscriminately fair to everybody. You know they are a template for people to apply the legislation and the policies we've got but this is personal and you know, I think we all probably sat on promotion boards. We've all interviewed people coming into this organisation everybody wants to be that care and sharing leader or supervisor.

But we get this wrong, so frequently it. You know, there's a lot as I said there are 11 people in South Wales at this very moment in time that are off with sick with cancer and you know that's not a lot really. That's 11 supervisors asking to say we're giving them advice to say you know, do your research, don't go treading in there with your size nines, don't go in there, telling all war stories. Do your homework. Find out what the organisation is willing to give because I, in my position, you know, I frequently have to give additional information for when people are being considered for that half pay and I know there's no way in the world that's we would be taking people to half pay who are going through cancer treatment in this moment time.

So you know why even send the letter. All our letters are now personally delivered by a supervisor, but why even send the letter that threaten this when we know we're not even going to do it just to appease our HR policy and procedures. You know. Let's just wise up on it really isn't it because we know we we could be so much better my
experience is speaking to colleagues who reached out to me across the organisation, we keep getting this wrong. One colleague wrote to me that experience 11 years ago. I had a letter from the then chief super to say you know this, if you carry on being sick, we're going to sack you. Effectively that's what she took from the letter. You know that
that's appalling as you say, let the person focus on trying to get better and fight this illness, you know, so yeah.

Keep it personal. Yeah, I think it's really important to remember that cancer just doesn't end when you end your treatment. You know the legacy of cancer. This is the second time I've had cancer. I had lung cancer in 2012. They know, I have reduced capacity. I pick up infections. I'm now in a position exactly as you were just saying Steve that I have been off sick more than I am allowed to be off sick and that is a constant in the back of my mind, it's a constant worry that I'm not going to get paid, I'm not going to.

Cancer is so expensive. It is extremely expensive and you know you're not just thank God I got paid for some of the time that I was off. But it is my letter, the letter came two and a half months into my chemo treatment. I got that letter to say I was going to go down to half pay whilst I was receiving chemotherapy and couldn't speak properly because the chemo was so strong it made me slur. So I had to speak to my line manager and ask what this meant because I didn't understand.

And those sort of things don't leave you. You know they stay with you because you've got no control over how much over whether or not you're going to get paid you know
you're waiting on somebody else, making that decision. It's extremely difficult.

Yeah. Sorry I just had to say. No, Vicky that was really, really, useful I was going to use you as an example as well. So, thank you very much for that. It is really useful the second one.

And I think Steve this is the point that you mentioned that I've highlighted here. Think about the family and friends too. The impact, who's affected, how can you help each other, support the patient, is the partner or is this the support they've got are they in the job, does that offer risk and level of support? Do they have a partner? What are the logistics? And the key thing I think here is to ask for feedback.

Is this OK? Is too little as a line managers. There's a lot of new supervisors now and not that used to good or a bad thing. It's just a fact a lot of them are younger now and less experienced ask and share that with those that you may be trainers, you might be training the supervisors, you may be amongst new supervisors and ask is this too much or is it too little and I think the framework that Steve mentioned was good.

What is realistic to expect from the organisation? Find out from the HR force? What's the tolerance or appetite? What is supportive leadership patients may not know if they're new to the organisations we've just got 20,000 new officers nationally so there are some patients may not know and their expectations may vary wildly so presidents will be set, though spell it out there should be no ambiguity like Steve said. We've got rules. We've got regulations. We
want to add to them to build on them to make this work, a better place to come back to.

And if the prognosis isn't good or what then let's be sensitive to all those needs and I think that struck me is, is the cancer journey. It's not nice in the life of the individual. It's not nice for the organisation. All the people around us. Nobody gets any satisfaction or joy from it. So it's about being as sensitive within the parameter set and the framework that I think Steve well put it as framework really, and the 4th point is try to know who else is getting in touch it saves multiple calls and texts. And that's the importance to the SPOC, so you have concerned colleagues, associations, unions, Federation, especially I found initially real flurry of really, really well intended but then it can be a dearth and when there are no calls at all, so that's the importance of a SPOC really single point of contact be that filter so you feel involved. But it's not too much so it's not too little so it can be overwhelming.

So text. I think Steve mentioned that earlier are good. Cause it can be too intrusive as I said depending on the progress of the health and the treatment and I resonate with what Vicky said some days I couldn't open my eyes. I couldn't get off the settee and I remember once feeling a sense of celebration. I had a double mastectomy and a reconstruction shortly after making chemotherapy and I remember the celebration of been able to flush the toilet because I found that little bit of strength in my arm, so during that time, I couldn't have had any interaction cause I could barely stand up. So it's that a case of texts are good and that filter and that single point of contact. Steve, would you say anything else on that page?

No, I think the commentary that is what we was saying, you know are you, are you the right one as well. You know I think we've had something in there isn't there. You know if if you've got a history with that person, I can't think of anything worse. I want to share some real personal issues with what you're going through somebody you don't get on with and so you know advise people to be mature. If you're not the right person, ask somebody else to pick it up.

I wouldn't have wanted to have conversations with somebody who was not as personable as Jeremy Vaughan was with me. You know, and I can you know I, I remember when I picked up the call, the phone. I picked up the phone to tell my supervisor that I had cancer. And I couldn't speak and I and as a bloke, I was bawling for about five minutes and he just let me ball and then you know, he just listened and he was fantastic, he's a really good people person.

And he swears as much as me, so we're alright to get on. But you know it's just other people might not be so comfortable and so as I say that it's it's critical ask for that feedback.

And as I say the power I've just the power of a text. You know from peers. There weren't my supervisors from peers and it meant the hell of a lot and I know sometimes
people feel just too awkward to reach out and I think you know give people that confidence via the SPOC, agree some contact rules, etc but definitely that you know, don't underestimate reaching out for somebody because it just might make their day.

Thank you for that Steve. Vicky, is there anything I've missed on there that you could add to those five points? Um, no. For me, it was extremely handy to have non-time critical work for me that eased me gently back into getting you know, my confidence back at work and my line manager encouraged me to do something she knew that I was
good at and which is taking phone calls and because she knew that would get my confidence up and I didn't have to explain that to her and it was because we had that
relationship before she understood what was going to work for me.

And you know cancer is a great leveler. Having somebody who's got your back at work in it. You can't underestimate that and you know you, you are just a cog in
a very big wheel of the force family, but knowing that somebody's got your back. When you know that it's not going to be plain sailing is incredibly important and made my transition back into work so much easier. They could not have been more interested in what was going to work for me and so they could put me first and slot me into what was required for the business to run smoothly and I will never forget that.

Yeah, yeah, I know it's really good. Thank you for that thank you. Vicky thanks. And just there's one more slide. I want to get to there so too. It's just one I want to go to 1st and now I go to some questions after this one.

And I will share what's in the toolkit if you need that. But I think the key thing that came across very strongly from colleagues and I have, I found myself and from Vicky
and from Steve is to listen and try to avoid your stories think Steve mentioned war stories try to avoid your stories about others with cancer positive and negative and consider asking how they are just instead. You know if the patient has been alluded to is likely to feel vulnerable. Maybe more sensitive, but ask what you can do, especially regarding work and I went to the disability conference about 10 days ago now. In Coventry and it was really, really useful and I heard Lynne Owens speak there about her recent cancer and she said about that is that whenever she told somebody your story.

Whenever she shared her experience. Most people came back with a lot of the time negative story about somebody they knew with cancer or an overly positive. One so if there was one thing I would say in the toolkit would be to listen and Steve alluded to that there that when he was upset. That the person I'm thinking might have even been Jeremy Vaughan, Steve I can't remember it was just listening. So I found that too. That people were very keen to tell me about their friends, family, even people they didn't even know especially when it hadn't worked out and I found that really had to steal myself to not making me upset again. I'm OK, obviously more recently. And they said to me at the in the while, while just while I'm on that point. Vicky they said to me at the time when I want to head to help Breast Cancer Now.

They said you'll need a few years before your help, and I said no no. I'm fine. This is fine. When I was just finishing the treatment and true enough and five years on and I feel able to talk about it now, so for you, Vicky to be here. A lot, lot sooner and for Steve as well. It makes me very proud of you both to be here because I'm a little bit further on and managed to do this without being emotional now, so thank you very much so I can come back to those but as it's nearing 11:30. I thought it would be a good time now. They just stopped sharing my screen.